Jump to content

Grigio mimetico and Savoia Marchetti SM.79 colours?


Fin
 Share

Recommended Posts

Could someone recommend a water based acrylic paint that is a good representation of Grigio Mimetico? Stormo magazine equals it to FS36231 with is basically Dark Gull Grey which seems noticeably less blueish than the color chips chart posted there:

https://www.stormomagazine.com/Articles/coloricmpr_1.jpg

 

Also, is there a definitive answer on what paints the Savoia Marchetti 79 bombers used in 1938? The stormomagazine site seems to be contradicting itself in several places. If someone actually knows in what colours the first lot of Italian built Romanian S.79B bombers were painted in it would be even better.

 

I`m considering the idea that the Romanian multicolor camouflaged PZL P.11f were actually using Italian paints. For example, no.114:

http://www.cartula.ro/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=156673

Better pictures can be found in the free IBG pdf on this subject (although they reach a very different conclusion):

http://www.ibgmodels.com/resources/Colour_options_IBG_72521_PZL_IAR_P.11F.pdf

The photos seem to have been made on orthochromatic film since the Blue on the rudder and roundels is very ligth and the red is very dark. Two dark colours and one lighter colour can be seen on the upper side (I`m thinking they might be some of the giallo, verde and marrone mimetico), with the underside having a noticeably lighter shade than the lighter colour on the upperside. But if the upperside colour is a yellow (Giallo Mimetico 3 for example) and the underside colour is a blue-gray this would explain why they appear that way, when in fact, the underside might be slightly darker than the upperside colour or about the same shade.

Edited by Fin
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm confused, I am not an expert so my sources may be wrong but my Copy of Regia Aeronautica Caccia & Assalto gives FS36231 and Humbrol H140, the Humbrol conversion chart also gives FS36231 as well as Stormo.

Is there new information out there, should I be brushing up my charts ?

 

Cheers

 

Dennis

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Humbrol 140 is supposed to match FS 36231, so if a reference suggests this paint to reproduce Grigio Mimetico on a model, then they acknowledge 36231 as the closest to the Italian paint.. that of course doesn't mean that FS 26293 is not as close, Grigio Mimetico of course was a totally separate paint from the ones in the FS catalogue, any correspondance is just a result of one paint being similar to another.

 

Regarding Grigio Mimetico in general, it is described as having a blue cast but we should not think of this as a very strong cast. The chip on the Stormo page, at least on my PC does not look like the colour I've seen in colour pictures of the era (I know, beware of old colour pictures...) or artifacts painted in this colour. It also doesn't look close to the colours used in the recent restoration of a number of aircraft (restorations carried out with great attention to these aspects too). FS 36231 on the other hand looks much closer, so I'd start from this colour, with of course all the caveats about the appearance of paint on a model, scale effect, weathering and so on...

Of course you could also start from FS 26293, that is available from Ammo, This is slightly more blueish and lighter than FS 36231, may look closer to the description.. but again really the two paints are pretty close.

Alternatively, if you like Tamiya's, a suggested mix in the Italian modelling community is 63%XF19+37%XF53.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I quoted the stormo article myself above and pointed out that it does not seem consistent. The section you’ve quoted (1938-1941) says verde 1 and marrone 3 for SIAI/S.79. Table 4 says verde 1 and marrone 2 (for S.79 in 1936 - the scheme shown there seems to be the one on the first lot of Romanian S.79b). The nect entry in Table 4 - for 1940 cammo - says verde 3 and marrone 53193. According to Table 1 though, SIAI is only listed for verde 53192.

 

I’d like something more definitive.

Edited by Fin
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Savoia Marchetti S79 from 1936 to 1938 were painted in the schema A1 Bande with stripes of giallo mimetico 3,verde mimetico 1 and marrone mimetico 2.The undersides were either painted in grigio mimetico or alluminio.The Humbrol colours are Hu63,Hu102,Humbrol Hu133,Humbrol Hu140 or Hu11.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

As Giampiero said, the SM.79 initially used the old scheme with the wide bands. Experience in the Spanish Civil War led to a revision of the camouflage policy for all types of aircraft, with the small spots schemes formally introduced in March 1938, although these had been used already the previous year.

This means that by 1938 there were SM.79s with both schemes and the A1 scheme was seen even later as standard policy was to repaint aircraft only during scheduled maintenance.

 

Regarding the colours used by SIAI, Arson Sisi was for sure a supplier to the company, so Marrone Mimetico 53193 was most likely used by Siai. Even today the Arson Sisi website shows a picture of an SM.79 painted in products from the company (in the older A1 scheme). However some of these products seem to have only been used after 1940.. and then not all Sparviero were built by SIAI, meaning that some likely carried different colours depending on the manufacturer. Pictures of early camouflaged 79s seem to show two quite distinct schemes, one with large spots and one with small, very dense spots. These could well indicate aircraft from different manufacturers as the schemes with the tricolour scheme weren't really standardised and it's often possible to identify the manufacturer of an aircraft from the scheme applied (exercise that unfortunately I've never done on this aircraft type, so can't help here).

 

As if the subject was not complicated enough, there is a different set of paint chips, known as Vito Charts. These were made after the war by a person who worked in Fiat and had access to the paints used during the war. He had a number of samples painted on the production lines with the actual paints used for the aircraft and then put all the material together. His list does not include all paints but if you want to have fun have a look here:

 

https://www.stormomagazine.com/RegiaAeronauticaColorsinWWII_VitoCharts.htm

 

Last but not least: I commented on Grigio Mimetico but found some more info regarding the FS matchs. Well, the CMPR book changed this between the first and second edition, in the first edition it was FS 36231 and in the second it became FS 26293. My previous comments are still valid though.

One thing I think too many forget whenever matching something to the FS catalogue: it would be useful to cite the exact version of the FS as a number of colours changed between the different editions. Not saying here that this happened with these colours, but it's something else to keep in mind.

 

Ok, I had said the previous point was the last... one more: yes Grigio Mimetico was supposed to be used, however aluminium paint was used for the undersurfaces for much longer than it was supposed to be, so much that in 1941 the Air Force issued a directive aimed at stopping its use once and for all. For this reason it could be very possibile that an SM.79 in 1938 would have had aluminum painted undersurfaces

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I’ve just painted my Macchi 200 underside in light gull grey - I will have to claim it’s faded!

 

Very interesting discussion and a lot to file away for my next Italian Job.

 

(edit) actually Grigio Azzuro Chiaro is called out for the MC200, so I might be all right, or at least closer!

 

Look forward to seeing your SM79!

 

Thanks,

Adrian 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 17/10/2022 at 11:43, Fin said:

I`m considering the idea that the Romanian multicolor camouflaged PZL P.11f were actually using Italian paints.

Why? 

The Romanians made aeroplane paint, based on RAF specifications initially,  for the IAR 80, according to sources on IAR 80 production, the colours used were very similar to RAF Dark Green and Dark Earth with a Sky Blue type colour. 

Later when building Bf109's, they used German paint, (74/75/76) or made copies of these. 

Any idea when the PZL 11f photos are from?   That may narrow down the possibilities.  

 

I'd need to dig out Romanian Fighter Colours,  to refresh my memory on this and I need to eat.     

 

One things that does come to mind is an image of an ex Yugoslav Hurricane in Romanian use, with a non standard upper scheme..  Have to dig that out.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

Why? 

The Romanians made aeroplane paint, based on RAF specifications initially,  for the IAR 80, according to sources on IAR 80 production, the colours used were very similar to RAF Dark Green and Dark Earth with a Sky Blue type colour. 

Later when building Bf109's, they used German paint, (74/75/76) or made copies of these. 

Any idea when the PZL 11f photos are from?   That may narrow down the possibilities.  

 

I'd need to dig out Romanian Fighter Colours,  to refresh my memory on this and I need to eat.     

 

One things that does come to mind is an image of an ex Yugoslav Hurricane in Romanian use, with a non standard upper scheme..  Have to dig that out.  

The colours on IAR-80, JRS.79B and so on, were not just similar, they were actually British paints made by Cerrux. Romania imported the paints. In this case, the British two colours on the upper side scheme seems to have been adopted too, on planes made or repainted locally starting with about 1940 (the Hurricanes and Blenheims were imported from Britain starting with the end of 1939). When these run out (Romania being in the Axis by now), Ikarol paints were imported from Germany and the camouflage scheme started to be in one colour for the upperside (similar to the Romanian imported Bf 109E). Both Ikarol and Cerrux are referred to as such in documents of the time. Prior to that the paints were imported from France and Poland in parralel with the aircraft imported from there. The tri colours camo on the PZL P.11f that I posted above (it is from a crash in June 1940, but other locally produced PZL, of various versions also sport this scheme) appears in photos of Romanian planes of around 1938-40. In 1938 the first lot of Italian produced Savoia Marchetti S.79B were imported and these were painted in the Italian scheme with three colours on the upperside. It makes sense that Italian paints were imported along with the Italian bombers and possibly used on other aircraft until they were out of stock. It`s not impossible that the workers mixed some of these imported paints, but in lack of any sort of data on this, if you have to guess some colours based on a black and white photo of a Romanian machine of these years, you basically have to extrapolate from what other imported aircraft Romania was using and the paint on which looks similar and you know what it could be.

 

The scheme on the Hurricane no.14 you`re probbaly talking about is a locally designed pattern it seems, using DE and DG. It is seen on other aircraft painted/repainted at that time.

Edited by Fin
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/19/2022 at 8:14 PM, AdrianMF said:

I’ve just painted my Macchi 200 underside in light gull grey - I will have to claim it’s faded!

 

Very interesting discussion and a lot to file away for my next Italian Jo

(edit) actually Grigio Azzuro Chiaro is called out for the MC200, so I might be all right, or at least closer!

 

Look forward to seeing your SM79!

 

Thanks,

Adrian 

 

On the MC.200 in general, the type used both greys depending on the timeframe: Grigio Mimetico was supposed to be replaced by Grigio Azzurro Chiaro 1 with the introduction of Tavola 10 in 1941. Companies of course used existing paint stocks before introducing the new colour while at the same time aircraft in the previous schemes were not repainted until the required scheduled maintenance. Now the 200 entered production in 1939 and the last was delivered in 1942, so the type production span over both pre and post-1941 camouflage instructions, although the majority left the factory before the Tavola 10 instructions were in place (autumn 1941). Aircraft also received the new schemes during maintenance (a few even got the famous smoke rings scheme) so there were MC.200 using both the older and newer grey.

Roughly speaking, an aircraft with any of the 3-colour upper surface schemes would have had Grigio Mimetico undersurfaces, those with green only or green splotches over sand uppersurfaces would have had Grigio Azzurro Chiaro.

 

Grigio Azzurro Chiaro is indeed lighter than Grigio Mimetico but it's not a very light grey. The closest colour in the FS catalogue is FS 36307, so it's lighter than say Medium Sea Grey but darker than the US Light Gull Grey.

 

Now all this speaking about Italian WW2 paints made me realize I haven't built a model of a Regia Aeronautica aircraft in ages... I should learn to build faster !

 

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Giorgio, it seems I’m close but no cigar! It’s a mojo restorer and the decals are on, so I will give it a darker wash underneath to get a bit closer to the colour, and I will look out for a darker grey when I go to SMW at Telford next month.

 

Regards,

Adrian

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, AdrianMF said:

Thanks Giorgio, it seems I’m close but no cigar! It’s a mojo restorer and the decals are on, so I will give it a darker wash underneath to get a bit closer to the colour, and I will look out for a darker grey when I go to SMW at Telford next month.

 

Regards,

Adrian

 

Any time we have this kind of discussions I should always add a warning label: one thing is the history of camouflage schemes and paints used on actual aircraft, and in this the real enthusiasts try to research the subject as accurately as possible and I'm firmly in this camp. A totally different thing is what to do when it's time to put some paint onto a model... 😀

That is something true for me too ! I may go through books to find as many references to the right camouflage schemes and understand the variations in colours but then the technique I use always sees a lightened coat as a basis, onto which I add very thin layers of the actual paint. That is not really how the folk at Macchi (or Supermarine or Grumman..) painted the real aircraft.

Be it scale effect, weathering techniques, the fact that I may not know what the actual paint was like or sometime even the parallel lack of the proper paint in the stash and the will to go out and buy it, I'm the first to use paints that differ one way or the other from what was used at the factory, atlhough I try to capture as best as I can the "character" of the paint.

Not to mention that different model paint companies often offer quite different interpretation of what the actual colour should be.. I have seen interpretations of Light Gull Grey that varied wildly over the years, with some so light to be like a dirty white and others that could have passed for medium Sea Grey....

 

All this to say that I wouldn't bother too much about changing paint to your Macchi, that I could have probably written with a single line... 😀

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Absolutely true Giorgio. As I am a big fan of the RA, this discussion is like a sea snake , but always with good spots, and it became more precise and specific with time and discoveries! I did paint my propellers Silver until I learned of the light blue! Stormo did a real good job making all those infos accessible to many modelers who thought Italian aircrafts were sand and spinachs. So encora una volta, Grazie Mille.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...