Sherman Superthread (now including Ram too)

[binglee]

On 29/10/2022 at 13:37, Kingsman said:

This photo came up on Facebook.  Sherman V.  Censor has scratched out beret badge and shoulder titles.  Not sure I've seen Panther track used as turret applique before.  Interesting scruffiness too.  Can't work out what the blotches on the hull side are.  Looks like something was attached, and are not unlike the DD screen frame attachments.  But the characteristic "hull bottom" weld line along the lower sponson edge isn't there - and that required the removal of the sandshield strips anyway.

Hi,

That's a Sherman from the South Alberta Regiment, part of 4th Canadian Armoured Division in Bergen Op Zoom in October 1944. Many of the SAR Shermans had Panther tracks on the turret, applied some time in Normandy. 
Some SAR tanks had attachment points for wire that was used by riders to climb up onto the vehicles. If these links work you can see it in use around the time of Operation Totalize. "45" is the South Alberta Regiment.
https://flic.kr/p/2nWhamA

Bill Inglee

Edited October 30, 2022 by binglee
added image

[Kingsman]

19 hours ago, StuartH said:

Could the blotches be where applique armour tracks were attached in some way?

I hadn't thought of that but it is a possibility. Links welded on teeth inwards.

 

The angled plate forming the inner side of the rear sandshield is separate piece from the sandshield end section. So it did not have to be removed with the sandshield. Hence the mixed situation. RFM are wrong IMO in suggesting the cut. Cut it off completely, or leave it as it is - thinned down a bit or replaced with metal foil if you want a crumpled one.

 

 

 

[Kingsman]

@binglee thanks for the info. Some other interesting ideas there too, like the wire.

 

On the subject of Sherman I Hybrids/Composites, I noticed yesterday that the Tank Museum shop has a few of the Asuka Last Chance boxing at £49.99, which seemed very reasonable. That is a late Composite with the High Bustle turret, perhaps more useful for US than UK. I noted that they also had a couple of the China Clipper composites with the Value Gear stowage set and several of the M32B1 along with a couple of the M4A2 DVs

[Peter Browne]

I have an opportunity to purchase the 1978 limited edition (1000 copies) of Hunnicutt's book "Sherman: A History of the American Medium Tank" at a good price (approx. AU$150 + shipping) and in fine condition. 

 

Does the limited edition provide any additional information or photographs? 

 

I have heard that the first edition has better printing and resolution of photographs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Peter Browne]

On 10/30/2022 at 10:06 PM, Kingsman said:

Yes that's exactly it. That's what I would regard as the norm for no sand shields on any M4 variant. A straight diagonal from the hull corner to the top of the idler mount.

 

Noting that this tank has been fitted for wading at some point. The vertical plates inboard of the tow spring brackets are mountings for the trunk. I have a diagram somewhere showing the various rear end wading bits that I did for a thread over on Missing Lynx. I will look it out.

 

@Kingsman Regarding the rear towing hooks in the photo below, are these the 'normal' hooks for VC Fireflies, or are the 'U' shape cleats?

 

[Kingsman]

@Peter Browne there is a lot going on in that photo. 

• That tank has been fitted for wading: note the 2 vertical strip brackets. 
• The angled eyes below the idler axle were installed for towing Porpoise sleds, hence the angle to suit the Porpoise crossed towbars.  The wading trunk obstructed the normal towing lugs for Porpoise use.
• No idea what the horizontal plate on the access door is.  Not seen that before.
• The large ugly vertical bracket is the anchorage for the spring type towing hook.  Obstructed in this case by the smoke candle holders, which were normally lower down and further to the right.
• That tank has T48 tracks, very unusual but not impossible on an M4A4 as replacements.  Relatively common on M4 Hybrids.  Note also the less common shorter and wider type of guide horn.

But to circle back to your original question the T-shaped "automatic" tow shackle is generally regarded as post war, but might possibly have seen use very late in WW2 on late-model Shermans like those with HVSS.  Highly unlikely to have been seen on any British tank in WW2.  A U shackle would have been the norm. 

 

The idea of the T shackle is that the oval eye at the end of the tow cable is placed over the T at 90 degrees to one side and then simply turned fore and aft to lock on.  No mucking about with shackles and pins. 

Edited November 12, 2022 by Kingsman
correction

[Kingsman]

@Peter Browne I believe the "reprint" of the Hunnicutt book is in fact just a hardbound scanned version of an original, like the softback "reprints".  I have a PDF soft copy someone gave me years ago.  As a typeset book no masters exist to reprint it, and the cost of typesetting again for such a small quantity would be prohibitive: you would need to print thousands.  The other alternative would be to produce a complete new master soft version, finding all the original photos from the Hunnicutt Archive.  Bovington had to do this in order to reprint the old David Fletcher books they have recently re-published.

[Kingsman]

A while back I said I would put up some annotated photos of the rear end of wading-equipped Shermans.  And I did not do it.  But here they are.  Noting that these are M4A4s and that other variants would have varied a little.

 

This is the colour key:

• Red = brackets for factory-fit vertical type towing hook, not generally fitted on British tanks as it obstructed the access doors and was off-centre.  But it could be contained within the wading trunk.
• Purple = brackets for the British-pattern leaf spring type towing hook.  This also obstructed the access doors and was not widely used although the brackets were widely fitted (not in lower photo).  It had to be removed for the wading trunk, then being stowed in the long hull rear stowage box.
• White = side brackets for the wading trunk.
• Yellow = lower tab brackets for the wading trunk.  There is a central one I forgot to circle.
• Green = Porpoise tow bar connections
• Pale blue = brackets for wading trunk sway braces.

 

 

Edited November 12, 2022 by Kingsman
addition

[Peter Browne]

14 minutes ago, Kingsman said:

@Peter Browne there is a lot going on in that photo. 

• That tank has been fitted for wading: note the 2 vertical strip brackets. 
• The angled eyes below the idler axle were installed for towing Porpoise sleds, hence the angle to suit the Porpoise crossed towbars.  The wading trunk obstructed the normal towing lugs for Porpoise use.
• No idea what the horizontal plate on the access door is.  Not seen that before.
• The bolt on the lower edge of the upper hull is odd.  That is roughly where the wading trunk stay bracket would be, but these were welded on.
• The large ugly vertical bracket is the anchorage for the spring type towing hook.  Obstructed in this case by the smoke candle holders, which were normally higher up and further to the right.
• That tank has T48 tracks, very unusual but not impossible on an M4A4 as replacements.  Relatively common on M4 Hybrids.  Note also the less common shorter and wider type of guide horn.

But to circle back to your original question the T-shaped "automatic" tow shackle is generally regarded as post war, but might possibly have seen use very late in WW2 on late-model Shermans like those with HVSS.  Highly unlikely to have been seen on any British tank in WW2.  A U shackle would have been the norm. 

 

The idea of the T shackle is that the oval eye at the end of the tow cable is placed over the T at 90 degrees to one side and then simply turned fore and aft to lock on.  No mucking about with shackles and pins. 

 

 

@Kingsman Thanks for the detailed info on the Firefly.  Regarding the smoke candle holders position, RFM have this on bottom of the right access door.  Like the one below.  I'm not sure how this could be located higher with the horizontal tow bar...

 

Regarding the book, I've bought it on the understanding it was an original 1978 version, as indicated on the face plate and looks on the cover slip.  Being described as a one in one thousand copy was a slight plus, but I was curious as whether that attribute rendered anything else in terms of content. I guess I'll find out either way!

 

[Peter Browne]

@Kingsman  Great photos, thanks.  What is the horizontal box with cable above the smoke candle holders?

[Kingsman]

@Peter Browne all the 1978 date tells you is that this is the original edition and has not been amended or changed.  It is common for reprint runs to be listed too in order to know whether you have an original.  So it perhaps should say something like "first published 1978, reprinted 2022".

[Kingsman]

8 minutes ago, Peter Browne said:

@Kingsman  Great photos, thanks.  What is the horizontal box with cable above the smoke candle holders?

Firing cable from the commander's position and igniter connections for the candles, 2 per holder.  There must be a diagram out there somewhere........  Location-wise they were supposed to sit below the spring tow attachment, as per your transporter photo, but high enough not to obstruct the wading trunk.  A "just fit" fit.

 

Unusual to see a British tank on an M15 trailer, suggesting a Dragon Wagon combination.  Apparently we did have a few.

[Peter Browne]

On 11/12/2022 at 9:26 PM, Kingsman said:

A while back I said I would put up some annotated photos of the rear end of wading-equipped Shermans.  And I did not do it.  But here they are.  Noting that these are M4A4s and that other variants would have varied a little.

 

This is the colour key:

• Red = brackets for factory-fit vertical type towing hook, not generally fitted on British tanks as it obstructed the access doors and was off-centre.  But it could be contained within the wading trunk.
• Purple = brackets for the British-pattern leaf spring type towing hook.  This also obstructed the access doors and was not widely used although the brackets were widely fitted (not in lower photo).  It had to be removed for the wading trunk, then being stowed in the long hull rear stowage box.
• White = side brackets for the wading trunk.
• Yellow = lower tab brackets for the wading trunk.  There is a central one I forgot to circle.
• Green = Porpoise tow bar connections
• Pale blue = brackets for wading trunk sway braces.

 

 

 

 @Kingsman  The vertical towing supports on this vehicle:  This is the Bovington tank.  Why did that vehicle have those supports?

[Kingsman]

Yes the top photo is Bovington's VC Firefly.  The lower picture is their V Crab.  They also have a vanilla 75mm V with no evidence of wading or towing attachment.  There is no reason for that tank not to have the attachment.  Fireflies were all converted to a relatively common standard by industry and most had received the usual minor UK mods before that.  Where they went after delivery was a matter for the depot system.

 

The original central towing pintle design on a long tube distorted too easily, jamming the engine access doors, and was rapidly discontinued and ordered to be removed on tanks in depot before issue.  The UK asked for our leaf spring design to be factory installed: it was a type of attachment already in use and just needed the brackets.  Predictably the US declined.  I believe this is where the offset vertical attachment came in, which proved insufficiently strong.  The UK decided to fit the leaf spring attachment as part of the mods installed on Shermans to UK taste.  But it seems not to have been universal.  This is Bovington's other A4, with no evidence of any of the 3 towing attachments despite being manufactured at about the same time as the other two.

[Peter Browne]

@Kingsman 

 

My Firefly build is a bit slow, due to limited time on weekends and being treated for Candida GI overgrowth which is nasty, painful, brain fogging crap...

 

Anyway, rant over.  I have gone past the rear stage of the build now, but always useful to get more detailed info on the whys and 'whyfors' for the next Firefly build (I have a few RFM VCs...such nice kits!). 

 

The pic below from Sherman Minutia site, shows the top vertical towing support, but not the bottom vertical towing support.  I guess it was removed at some stage, which is interesting.  Possibly along with the top of the right vertical wading trunk side bracket, if that what the lower vertical strip is in the red rectangle...  

 

[Peter Browne]

What are options for wading stacks for a M4A2 USMC (not the drum kind)? 

 

Just need the parts that fit to exhaust and air intake, i.e. the stacks having been detached. 

 

I could buy the old Academy kit 13203 just for those parts (all on the J sprue), but that would be sort of wasteful (>AU$100 from UK on eBay)  This is to fit Asuka AS-002.  Such a iconic piece of equipment for Shermans and no current suppliers?  There was the Tank Workshop set... Now TDM - But I don't see this in the Tiger Model Designs offerings 

 

It would be great if we could just buy these sets to depict either full or detached stacks...how about asking TDM as I have?

 

[Peter Browne]

Another question (doing my best to legitimatise the superthread status...).  

 

Sherman M4A3 105.  From what I've read (e.g. this review), neither the Dragon 6354 (HVSS) nor the Academy 13207 (HVSS) kits are correct 'enough' (and the question of whether the word 'enough' is even in the Sherman builders' vocabulary).  Opinions? 

 

Of interest for a future build is this Okinawa M4A3 (VVSS) 105 in a largely uncontested advance along a coastal route by the 6th Marine Tank Bn, April 1945:

 

 

Though, again, the remnants of the wading gear are difficult to source.  Also the decals don't seem to be available for this vehicle. 

 

Though Star Decals (#35897) have the vehicle depicted below (with T49 tracks?), also from the 6th Marine Tank Bn, in Naga, Okinawa: 🙂  Wading gear, sigh...   And a 1/35 M4A3 105 VVSS kit?  Tamiya? Sigh...  Perhaps replacement roadwheels.  Or TDM upgrades?  I don't think Asuka make a 105...

 

BTW what are the horizontal rails on the outside of the suspension?

 

 

 

[Kingsman]

My what a lot of questions!

 

OK. The rails in the lower photo are wood or steel bars designed to stop Japanese soldiers stuffing satchel charges in the suspension. They may once have carried wood plank or steel plate skirts. Both were used, field improvised. Value Gear do a couple of bogie plank sets and hull side plank sets.

 

I'm not sure we know yet whether Asuka will include wading gear in their new A2. But history suggests not. Although it is perhaps a more important aspect of the A2 in the Pacific. As you say the TMD and TWS options are now gone. As far as I can see Resicast only do British A2 wading stacks. For my money there is actually not a lot wrong with the Academy M4A2. If it wasn't for the goof of the turret hatch the Zvezda A2 would be a good choice as well. Nice link and length t49 tracks. 

 

The usual criticism of 105mm tanks is the shape of the mantlet. You might be lucky enough to still be able to get hold of a replacement mantlet from TMD before they close down. Jordi Rubio did one in white metal but that is hard to find and I'm not sure it was any better. Tamiya's A3 105 is by far the worst of the bunch. Dragon's A3 has HVSS and is therefore not really suitable. The academy A3 105 with the dozer blade is almost impossible to find. I think TMD used to do a complete 105mm turret. That would give you the option of using a decent A3 hull with a couple of other changes like the ranging stakes. Asuka perhaps, but again I might suggest the Zvezda A3.

 

 

 

[Peter Browne]

Thanks @Kingsman

 

Actually, tonight I received Steve Munsell's (Value Gear) resin set for the Asuka 'Jungle Jim' M4A2  (AS-002S), which is now OOP and impossible to find.  The set includes the exhaust and intake connections for the stacks, but no stacks (I don't want the full stacks...).  Though the casting could be better for those parts, they are workable I think with a bit of clean-up.  Steve kindly sent this resin set to me as leftovers from supplying Asuka with the Jungle Jim wading bits, side wooden 'splinter' panels, beams for the glacis, and a bag of bits including nice bags and haversacks etc.  At least I have these to work on Jim - just need to source the Bison decals (35018).

 

I have asked TMD and Resicast if they would make the US marine wading sets (with or without full stacks) for M4A2 and M4A3.  We'll see.  Anyone else I could ask? Maybe Shapeways designers.

 

I suspected the Tamiya kit was not going to be good.  I'll check out the Zvezda option.  I know TMD have 105 turrets (early and late) to go with the Asuka M4A3 (76) 35-019.

 

https://tigermodeldesigns.com/ols/products/m4-series-late-105-mm-turret-complete-turret

 

https://tasca-shop.ocnk.net/product/87

 

But I can't see a 105 mantlet on TMD...

 

Would the late 105 turret be accurate for No 3 (I assume the same as No 2 in the other photo) at Okinawa in the above photo?

 

I assume the ranging stakes are these:

 

https://tigermodeldesigns.com/ols/products/m4-series-105-mm-cleaning-rods-and-aiming-stakes-in-canvas-bag

 

Panzer Art do a 105 mantlet and aluminium barrel, but I don't know if it would fit.

 

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/panzer-art-gb35-054-sherman-105-mantlets-with-m4-howitzer--1382500

 

[Peter Browne]

@Kingsman  I got a reply from Joe Bakanovic from Tiger Model Designs (TMD) regarding wading trunks/stacks and the 105 mantle. 

 

He says he never had a mould for the wading trunks and won't be producing one now that TMD are closing on 31 Dec.  Do you know what's going to happen to his stocks?

 

Regarding the mantle, Joe states:

 

Quote

It comes with the mantle, barrel and a bunch of other parts to detail-up a late/post war 105 mm turret.  I never got the pictures posted, and it will NOT happen now, but the parts are there and they were mastered by Karl van Sweden, so I trust them.

https://tigermodeldesigns.com/ols/products/m4-post-ww2-105mm-replacement-mantle-for-dml

 

[Kingsman]

Noting that the 105 turret was used on M4 and M4A3 and that M4(105) production started first and M4A3(105) production ended last, the "earliest" features are only seen on M4s (e.g. split hatch) and the "latest" are only seen on A3s.

 

The only "later" mantlet difference I can think of is the introduction of the shutter cover over the gunner's sight aperture, which it seems that VVSS A3(105)s did not receive.  A canvas cover over the rotor was introduced just before the HVSS switch which some VVSS tanks did receive.

 

It seems that all A3(105)s were built with the vision cupola and most if not all with the overhanging bulge for it.  Also therefore with the relocated MG mount over the rear vent and turret rear MG stowage fittings.  And the car-type horn rather than the earlier sirens.  The hull top stake stowage was NOT seen on VVSS A3(105)s.  It seems that very few 105s had the armoured gunner's periscope sight cover: some have been noted very late in the Pacific.

 

Some units in the Pacific swapped the vision cupola from 105s to command gun tanks, replacing it with the split hatch.  Which explains the apparent anomaly of the overhanging bulge for the cupola with the split hatch.

 

M4(104)s were also used in the Pacific, probably more of them than A3s.  I believe that USMC only had A3s whereas Army had both, but a majority of M4s and only 1 battalion with A3s.

[Peter Browne]

@Kingsman  thanks.  So a late 105 turret.  It's a pity that the images on the TMD site for the 105 turret seem to be enlarged from thumbnail size, making them quite blurry.  So it's hard to tell what the vision commander's hatch looks like.  Apparently all hatches, mantle, rotor, gun tube and detail set etc are included.  So good value.

 

https://tigermodeldesigns.com/ols/products/m4-series-late-105-mm-turret-complete-turret

 

There is a constructed model of a M4A3E8 (HVSS) 105 (Korea) with the TMD 105 turret at: 

 

https://archive.armorama.com/forums/263607/index.htm

 

Which looks great.  I might just go for it while it's available.

 

[Kingsman]

Probably the all-round best option for an A3(105) using a large-hatch M4A3 hull of your choice.  I would go for an A3(76) as these were almost all (2,500 vs 500) built by Chrysler too.  Large-hatch M4A3(75)s were Fishers with some differences from Chrysler.

[Peter Browne]

Yes.  The TMD 105 Late complete turret was made for the Taska (Now Asuka) 35-019 which I have ordered for this build. 

 

Too many future builds, but that's what makes this such an interesting hobby 

 

Btw, re ranging stakes, what would be appropriate?

[Peter Browne]

Asuka 1/35 USMC M4A2 (75) “Caesar” #35050 update.  Looks like it's still in design stage.  So have pleaded to have wading stack exhaust and air intake adaptors added to the kit design, which Marine vehicles always seem to have retained after landing.