Sherman Superthread (now including Ram too)

[Kingsman]

I see that your parallel question over on M-L has produced some information, at least for the M4A2. I imagine the A3 version in the Pacific might have had the same upper trunk with different lower adaptors.  But was US wading gear for M4, A1 and A3 in Europe the same?  These photos suggest that the trunk was actually the same with different adaptors, here on M4 and M4A1. (continued below)......

   

 

So from Asuka's perspective while there are some common parts they still need 3 different hull adaptors.  3 separate sets?  A 3-way multi set?

 

And then there are the British adaptors, all of which are completely different from their US equivalents. 

[Peter Browne]

6 hours ago, Kingsman said:

I see that your parallel question over on M-L has produced some information, at least for the M4A2. I imagine the A3 version in the Pacific might have had the same upper trunk with different lower adaptors.  But was US wading gear for M4, A1 and A3 in Europe the same?  These photos suggest that the trunk was actually the same with different adaptors, here on M4 and M4A1. (continued below)......

   

 

So from Asuka's perspective while there are some common parts they still need 3 different hull adaptors.  3 separate sets?  A 3-way multi set?

 

And then there are the British adaptors, all of which are completely different from their US equivalents. 

 

Certainly sounds plausible.  I would imagine that there were certain US manufacturers who were tasked to design and construct the wading gear for the US Army and USMC for 1944, and these supplied to Britain who decided to produce their own adapters for their variations of the Sherman. 

 

I have asked NARA about the possibility of obtaining manufacturing drawings/blueprints.

 

Rather than cross-posting any more on this subject (possibly useful in the first instance), I will just maintain the thread on this specific subject at https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/missinglynx/us-m4a2-and-m4a3-wading-adapters-and-stacks-design-t333079.html

[Kingsman]

British wading stacks were completely different.  We did not use any part of the US pattern.  Our stacks did not have the round-over at the top and had wire bracing, implying less substantial construction.  I have never understood why the round-over on the US exhaust stacks faced forward, not rearward.

 

I imagine this difference in design and construction came about from a US desire to have more substantially built re-usable fittings knowing that the Pacific campaign would be a succession of landings.  You see the same thinking with the huge and ungainly T6 flotation device, used only once although hundreds of tanks were adapted to carry it.  Whereas the British fittings for D Day were single-use disposable devices.  Crossing the Rhine and the Scheldt and the lake country in Northern Italy were a long way off and probably not even being considered then.

[Kingsman]

So.  HVSS tracks.......

 

I have 7 - yes, 7 - WIP HVSS tanks to complete.  I bought AFV Club T80 tracks only to discover that they are poor.  And that's being generous.  Bad fit and pin marks on every link.  So I ditched them for the new RFM T80s, lulled by their allegedly clip fit.  Which they don't, and need to be carefully glued.  At least there are jigs for building 6 link sets.  Each box has 1,016 parts by my count.  But it also has 2,216 sprue gates including 512 knock-out pins to clip and clean.  Each guide horn alone has 3 attachment points and a mould seam.  A new measure of tedious insanity.  I'm losing the will and I haven't finished a fraction of 1 set, never mind 6 more.........

 

Masterclub only do T66s.  Friul do T80s but they are 5 parts and 2 pins per link.  Warp United do 1-piece T80s with a single pin but these seem to be unavailable. Kaizen's plastic links are the same but plastic and vinyl with metal pins.  Raupen Model's version are identical in construction to RFM with a few less sprue gates.  In 3D, only Chino Model seem to do them.  They are £30 a set, about the going rate.  But the optional easier build version are £47 a set.  And they say to avoid both water and solvents: hmmm.....

 

Does anyone else have any ideas or recommendations?

[Kingsman]

Dragon's Composite 75mm seems to be the latest re-issue with the new Magic Tracks.  This comes with both high and low bustle turret options.

[StuartH]

42 minutes ago, Kingsman said:

So.  HVSS tracks.......

 

I have 7 - yes, 7 - WIP HVSS tanks to complete.  I bought AFV Club T80 tracks only to discover that they are poor.  And that's being generous.  Bad fit and pin marks on every link.  So I ditched them for the new RFM T80s, lulled by their allegedly clip fit.  Which they don't, and need to be carefully glued.  At least there are jigs for building 6 link sets.  Each box has 1,016 parts by my count.  But it also has 2,216 sprue gates including 512 knock-out pins to clip and clean.  Each guide horn alone has 3 attachment points and a mould seam.  A new measure of tedious insanity.  I'm losing the will and I haven't finished a fraction of 1 set, never mind 6 more.........

 

Masterclub only do T66s.  Friul do T80s but they are 5 parts and 2 pins per link.  Warp United do 1-piece T80s with a single pin but these seem to be unavailable. Kaizen's plastic links are the same but plastic and vinyl with metal pins.  Raupen Model's version are identical in construction to RFM with a few less sprue gates.  In 3D, only Chino Model seem to do them.  They are £30 a set, about the going rate.  But the optional easier build version are £47 a set.  And they say to avoid both water and solvents: hmmm.....

 

Does anyone else have any ideas or recommendations?

 

You can get Warp tracks through Amazon but quite expensive. I have no idea about quality.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Workable-Metal-HVSS-Track-Links/dp/B09MQ2P51J/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3JKIP8CTZ9GM0&keywords=warp+tracks+hvss&qid=1669158300&sprefix=warp+tracks+hvss%2Caps%2C161&sr=8-1

[Kingsman]

I looked on Amazon and it said not available, although your link says they are.  But in any case $60 / £50 a set is a big ouch.  £350 for 7 sets.  Plus shipping plus 20% import VAT, so let's say £450.........  I'm thinking that's most of a newer 50" TV for my lounge.............

[Peter Browne]

@Kingsman  You have probably already considered Cyber Hobby DS tracks...I have no idea what they are like though...  Which kits are you doing, all the same kits?

 

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/cyber-hobby-3863-ds-track-sherman-t80--134665

[Bullbasket]

I'll say this quietly, so as to avoid the deluge of opposite views, BUT.......there is always the Tamiya tracks!! Yes I know that a lot of people have had problems with them disintegrating after time, but I have to say that I've never experienced any problems with them. My M51's tracks, which are a few years old now, are still in perfectly good condition. Maybe it's to do with the initial primer. I always use Halfords grey acrylic auto primer, and so far no problems.

 

John.

[Kingsman]

Unfortunately the Dragon and Tamiya vinyl tracks went in the bin a long time ago when I was lulled into believing the wondrous simplicity of the RFM offering.  Hindsight, eh?  But in any case the project in hand is an M4A4 hull so none of the vinyl HVSS would fit anyway.  Dragon still give their old pin-mark-ridden non workable indy links in their M50.

 

I find myself wondering if 3D printed lengths of links are actually much better than vinyl, especially with some manufacturers' warnings about solvents etc.  It seems they will have the same problems with shaping, sag and joining but may avoid the difficult mould line.

 

The problem for any design of either VVSS or HVSS link where the end connector is attached to the link is that they will not articulate properly.  In both designs the end connector - and centre in the HVSS case - articulates separately from the links.  With the fixed connector the links cannot fit the sprockets properly.  Dragon seem to have adopted this connected design for their new Magic Links but I haven't been able to establish if they give different links for the sections around sprocket, idler, first and last roadwheels with angled connectors.  Friul Model do this with their VVSS links, which kinda makes a mockery of calling them workable and means that they need to be built very precisely.  Masterclub have you glue the connectors to one link leaving the other pin free but I have found that cyano doesn't hold and they will flex properly around the sprockets, where the end connectors need to fit snugly into the teeth.  Masterclub's end connector pins are longer than those on Friul connectors and hold together better, but the diameter can be variable and sometimes needing link drilling.  I put the especially difficult ones to one side and have always had connectors and links left over.  Some Masterclub sets come with hollow pins and wire but the wire is unnecessary as well as a RRPITA to use.

[bigfoot]

23 hours ago, Kingsman said:

Dragon seem to have adopted this connected design for their new Magic Links but I haven't been able to establish if they give different links for the sections around sprocket, idler, first and last roadwheels with angled connectors.

They do, I’ve got one of their PTO composite Shermans, the first I think they released with the new indy tracks. You get a small bag of track links designed to around the sprockets and then a large number of regular ones. I’ve not tried assembling them yet but I’ll get some pictures later.

 

I’ve just seen dragon are rereleasing their M4A2 PTO kit but with indy tracks, 3D printed light guards and duckbills and a metal barrel.

[Kingsman]

The 3D extended end connectors are in the IC Hybrid Firefly too.  Metal barrels are not entirely new for Dragon but 3D is something new for a mainstream company like them.  Hopefully they've realised the difficulty of bending and attaching their etched ones, especially the wafer-thin attachments.  I've been using MJ Productions' 3D light guards since I discovered them. 

 

I can see 3D becoming more common in mainstream kits if only because of the much-reduced tooling costs, amounting only to the CAD file with no metal cutting.  Universal printing machines, no mould changing.  Easier correction of errors or modification to variations.  And greater finesse for fine parts.

[Peter Browne]

12 hours ago, Kingsman said:

The 3D extended end connectors are in the IC Hybrid Firefly too.  Metal barrels are not entirely new for Dragon but 3D is something new for a mainstream company like them.  Hopefully they've realised the difficulty of bending and attaching their etched ones, especially the wafer-thin attachments.  I've been using MJ Productions' 3D light guards since I discovered them. ...

 

 

I've had some issues with CAing the MJ light guards...the supports to the glacis being very thin and fragile, resulting in being difficult to glue in the correct place without applying too much CA.  It may just be down to experience in doing this.  Any tips?

[Bullbasket]

I'm afraid that I am not a fan of 3D printed brush guards as they are a beggar to clean up. The attachment points down the vertical parts are difficult to remove with a sharp blade without snapping the leg. Also not a fan of the etched ones that Dragon include in the kits as they are wafer thin. My go to are Aber and Eduard. Not perfect, but better than the kit included plastic items.

 

John.

[Kingsman]

The MJ ones actually have the little weld beads at the bottoms of the legs, which gives a slightly larger gluing surface. Certainly larger than etch. But because of the welds a little excess CA may not be entirely undesirable.

 

Other than the support attachments I don't find that they need any cleanup. But yes, separating them from the support can be tricky and the siren guard is trickiest, although that design was not universal. I use cuticle nippers from the pharmacy for most of it. The Shapeways 3D guards were hopeless, just as thick as injection parts. I haven't tried any others.  I know FCM do them, and T Rex if memory serves. Or is it Heavy Hobby....... 

 

[Kingsman]

A little excess CA may not be a bad thing as seen on on this PSC siren guard and the rear light guard below.  The Chrysler headlight guard at the bottom is actually a lot neater.

[Kingsman]

There is a thread going on over on Missing Lynx about large-hatch M4A3(75) configurations, specifically the Asuka Cougar kit.  Might be useful if that variant floats your boat and would apply equally to the Dragon "M4A3(75)W ETO" kit. 

 

This variant was used by US Army and Free French forces in NWE, US Army and USMC in the PTO.  They were only built by Fisher, so this discussion doesn't read across the the Chrysler-built 76 and 105mm A3s.  There was a much rarer HVSS version (651 vs 2420 VVSS), although no-one kits it.  Unsurprisingly as only a handful saw service in ETO just before the war ended and none in PTO.

 

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/missinglynx/asuka-m4a3-late-cougar-kit-and-build-options-quest-t333158.html#p1687136

[Peter Browne]

Looking for 1/35 decals for a M4A3 (105) (VVSS).  I was planning to build a USMC vehicle, but then found they didn't operate 105s during WW2.   This is using the Asuka M4A3 (76) (#35-019) and the TMD 105 Late turret.  Star is limited to HVSS in Korea, and one set (#35-991) which includes a heavily sand-bagged vehicle, possibly using the Legend set.  I don't find that appealing - I like to see my Sherman. 

 

Possibly I could use a vehicle set from 35-991, or even the decals from the Tamiya 105 kit if I could source them.  Doesn't seem to be much else around.  WW2 or Korea or post-war Middle East is OK, but an identifiable vehicle is preferable, and one that is interesting.

 

Perhaps this IDF 105?

 

[Kingsman]

@Peter Browne Sadly no. 

 

All the IDF 105s were M4's, not M4A3s, mostly obtained from Italy.  Because the A3s were reserved for US use with very few released for export, apart from the M4A3E4 76mm conversions for MDAP, Israel obtained few if any A3s.  There were many surplus and unwanted A3 105s in the US post-war and many were converted to 76mm.  Some as E4s with the small turret and some with turret swaps from surplus less preferred 76mm models, A1 and A2.

 

Your best bet for an A3 105 in WW2 is probably Europe.  The first A3 105s arrived in France in Sept '44 and some arrived in Italy as early as July: at least 8 tank battalions plus some armoured infantry battalions in Italy had them.  Lots of extended end connectors and even grousers in Italy.

[Kingsman]

Dragon's El Alamein DV Sherman II is the latest to be released with the new Magic Track.  Looks like they're working their way through their Sherman catalogue and the new box arts are showing the inclusion of the new parts.

[Kingsman]

I said I would do something on Sherman bogies and the various minor but often noticeable differences, usually plant variations.  Kit manufacturers have not necessarily cottoned-on to these yet and we find the same mouldings in several kits where variations would be appropriate but costly from the tooling perspective.

 

One thing that almost everyone gets wrong - even Asuka - is the top face and the way the roller brackets and top skid attach.  We all know about the missing bolt holes in the front bogie face, a factor of the moulding process but easily remedied with a simple drilling jig.  I suspect we also all know about the missing 4 bolts inside the roller bracket for the same reason.  Some bogie faces were smooth, some were not.  Notably the NMC bogies used on M4A4s and other Chrysler VVSS tanks were not, as in the middle photo.  There are awkward joins in these areas on many kits.

 

    

 

But the real goof is the missing raised strips along the front and back edges of the bogie top face.  The bogie bracket and front edge of the skid attach to these and the rear edge of the skid sits on top of the bogie bracket, not in a cut-out in the bracket as some kits give you.  Each of these strips has 4 holes  At the front the middle 2 are used to attach the skid and the outer 2 are unused but visible.  At the back the middle 2 attach both skid and roller bracket and the outer 2 are used to attach the bracket.  The roller bracket is actually attached with 8 bolts........  This was common to all VVSS bogies from all sources.

 

Front edge, showing the strip, skid attachment and 2 unused holes.                           Rear edge showing roller bracket on top of the strip and the skid on top of the bracket.  Note the 2 bolts outboard of the skid as well as 2 on the skid.

    

 

More views.  Note the use of lockwires.

  

 

  

 

There are also 2 holes with prominent raised rims on the centreline of the top face, which some kits show.  IIRC these were part of manufacture (for lifting eyes?) and have no purpose in use.  Just visible in the left photo above and the photo below, which also shows clearly from the side view how the skid sits on the roller bracket.

[Peter Browne]

17 hours ago, Kingsman said:

@Peter Browne Sadly no. 

 

All the IDF 105s were M4's, not M4A3s, mostly obtained from Italy.  Because the A3s were reserved for US use with very few released for export, apart from the M4A3E4 76mm conversions for MDAP, Israel obtained few if any A3s.  There were many surplus and unwanted A3 105s in the US post-war and many were converted to 76mm.  Some as E4s with the small turret and some with turret swaps from surplus less preferred 76mm models, A1 and A2.

 

Your best bet for an A3 105 in WW2 is probably Europe.  The first A3 105s arrived in France in Sept '44 and some arrived in Italy as early as July: at least 8 tank battalions plus some armoured infantry battalions in Italy had them.  Lots of extended end connectors and even grousers in Italy.

 

Thanks.  An A3 105 in Italy would be good.  Would Asuka 35-019 and the TMD turret be appropriate for one in Italy?  A vehicle?  But then the question of decals...sigh.  

[Kingsman]

I can't see why that combination would not be appropriate.   US markings are amongst the simplest to create from alphabet sheets or cobble together from other decal sheets as they are just letters and numbers with the occasional triangle.  And the ubiquitous white star.  Unless it was a unit which used large turret numbers or some other oddity. 

 

105s always lived in HQs so their individual vehicle numbers would be HQ-something.  For the single 105 in a Company HQ probably HQ-3 or 4.  For the 3 in the Assault Gun Platoon in a Battalion HQ probably numbers in the low 20's: 20-25 maybe.  There was a specific Order Of March set out for US units which governed the numbering but I'm damned if I can find it.  For the 5 independent tank battalions in 5th Army you'd be looking at 5A-751Δ: or 752Δ, 755Δ, 757Δ or 760Δ.  For the 3 battalions in 1st Armd Div you'd be looking at 5A-1Δ-1Δ: or 4Δ or 13Δ.  But many photos show US tanks without unit markings, or indeed without any markings at all other than the Ordnance serial.  Probably in the range 30103303 - 30103358 for those early Italy arrivals: 20103307 is known, the 5th A3 105 produced.

[Mig Eater]

I'm looking for some clarification regarding the Sherman Crocodile, IIRC the prototype was built on an M4A4 but the production versions used the M4..?  

[Kingsman]

@Mig Eater It seems the other way around.  The consensus of the limited information available is that the 3 "production" Crocodiles were M4A4s and the prototype was an M4A2.  Which seems very odd for tanks destined for US forces: M4 or M4A3 might be expected, and M4A4s were already in short supply for UK forces anyway with concurrent Firefly and DD conversion programmes.