RAF interior green. When was it first introduced?

[iang]

There are lots of threads on the best colour match for RAF interior green. This is not one of them.  Instead, I'm trying to understand the timeline of when it was first introduced and whether the time-line varied by aircraft type.  Specifically, I'm interested in Fleet Arm Aircraft (and before May 1939, RAF aircraft procured for Royal Navy use), but the question also applies to early war RAF types. 

 

First, the Fairey Swordfish. The internal fabric sections would have been natural fabric colour or with red primer leaking through. But were the metal parts ever interior green? While I'm confident that interior green would have been used on the Blackburn built Swordfish (from 1941 onwards), nearly all of Fairey's production run was prewar. All extant versions are Mk II or later - as far as I'm aware no Mk I survives. Photographs of extant Mk II and Mk III interiors are all over the internet and some are from aircraft completely rebuilt during restoration, but the interiors seem to be a combination of interior green, black stove enamel and aluminium. How about the parent company's output? The best photographs I've found are in The Swordfish at War. These seem to show metal interior parts in aluminium and a light colour. This is possibly  Light Aircraft Grey (the tones match the external metal surfaces), but equally could be interior green. As far as I'm aware, 1930s Fairey produced aircraft prior to the Swordfish were painted in a combination of Light Aircraft Grey, black stove enamel and aluminium paint. Given that the Swordfish was first introduced in 1936, was this practice continued until 1940, or did a switch occur to RAF interior green at some point in the production run?

 

Second, the Blackburn Skua. The FAAM has a great collection of production photos, most of which I've never seen published. The interiors look to be a combination of aluminium and a light colour, but were they produced too early for interior green? If so, is this light colour Light Aircraft Grey again? The FAAM also have some colour photos of artefacts recovered from Skuas lost in Norway. Here parts are aluminium, but others - specifically a recovered pilot's seat - are painted in what might best be described as 'Apple Green'. Certainly darker than the light tone seen in the FAAM's production  photographs and much darker and brighter than RAF interior green. 

 

Third, Gloster Gladiators (and Sea Gladiators). Here the photograph evidence is better. One example is the RAF Museum's Gladiator N5903, which definitely has some of metal parts painted interior green, while others are aluminium (Crawford MMP p.59).  Assuming that the interior green finish is original (I don't know if it is, but it seems to be present on some metal surfaces in other preserved Gladiators too),  this Gladiator was one of the last Gladiator Mk II produced and delivered in 1939. If the interior colours are original, it would serve as a good indication of the way that the entire Sea Gladiator production run was finished (though possibly not the interim series). It would also serve as a useful reference for dating the introduction of RAF interior green.

 

 

[Graham Boak]

Source SAM May 2018: Colour Conundrum Grey Green 1924-1945.  The correct name is Grey Green not Interior Green, which was a WW2 US colour.  To precis the article, discussions for such a colour began in 1924, and by 1930 it was in RAF Vocabulary of Stores as 338/54 (338/55 is known to have been introduced in October 1930).  Paul Lucas raises the question whether this was the same colour as in WW2 use, for there is considerable evidence for a lighter green in use prewar and the early war years.  Light Grey Green is also recorded as a name in this period., including its presence in Dupont RAF Equivalents as 71-036.  IT is suggested that this colour was present in BS381(1930) as Silver Grey.  There are a number of varying accounts of such a colour in use, certainly well into early Spitfires and even a mention on a Tempest drawing.  However, it seems that it was officially superseded by Grey Green in 1937 as part of the introduction of the standard camouflage schemes.  Grey Green has been recorded on a crashed Blenheim (build date August 1940).

 

Paul did attempt to see inside the suspended IWM Spitfire but was unable to come to any conclusion.  It would be interesting to know what the recent restorers have found, especially the one dug up from Dunkirk beach.  At the moment it seems that the key dates are 1930 and 1937. but the article lacks any direct reference to FAA subjects.

[iang]

I need to get hold of that article. Thanks for the nomenclature correction. Grey Green in 1937 might suggest Swordfish were finished in that colour, or at least a considerable proportion of the Fairey production run.

[Dave Swindell]

30 minutes ago, iang said:

I need to get hold of that article. Thanks for the nomenclature correction. Grey Green in 1937 might suggest Swordfish were finished in that colour, or at least a considerable proportion of the Fairey production run.

It's in Compendium no 1 along with other Colour Conundrums

https://www.guidelinepublications.co.uk/index.php?GOTO=835&PICFILE=835&STKNR=835&STRH=28&ORDN=49&RNZ=931158&THISVIEWMODE=2&SUPPLIER=&FINDRETR=&WIDENET=&CATEGORY=4&SUB=1&VWW=1&VANCE=99

1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

but the article lacks any direct reference to FAA subjects.

As far as it's use as an interior colour goes, but the second half of the article is about its use as an exterior colour on FAA aircraft.

[Graham Boak]

3 minutes ago, Dave Swindell said:

 

As far as it's use as an interior colour goes, but the second half of the article is about its use as an exterior colour on FAA aircraft.

Agreed, but i thought that was outside of Ian's question on interior colour.  I was fairly sure that he would have been aware of that anyway.  If not, it'll be a nice surprise when he gets it.

[iang]

I bought a digital copy. There is some interesting information in the article, but in terms of primary documents there is not much referenced on interior colours other than the 1924 trials and the AMO of 19 May 1937 quoted by Morgan and Shacklady. This looks to be crucial for the time-line, but has not been found.  Most of the rest is speculation and extrapolation. A lot of this is based on Ian Huntley's opinions and I would really like to see the primary documents that these are based upon. 

[Kari Lumppio]

Hi!

Finland did order Blenheim bombers in 1936. Original documents tell about paints used:

Interiors - Cockpit Green consisting of:

1 layer Primer 2SB 591

1 layer Cockpit Green Cerrux DTD 260

 

This information from a fellow researcher. I try remember to ask him if the referred document was dated. Will be travelling few days, so likely no quick answers.

Edit

Got the answer. Hallinportti aviation museum has or at least did have binder titled "Finnish Blenheims" where the paint information quoted above comes. The museum is small and open by appointment outside June-July. No copying machine there and back then the friend's only option was manually written notes.  No date recorded, only paint information. His recollection is that the document was from year 1937. This still needs verification. I might be able to visit there during coming months if only I will have time for it when nearby the museum. My latest visit there was 1986.

 

Cheers,

Kari

Edited October 6, 2022 by Kari Lumppio

[Lusitanian]

What do you gentlemen think about the possibility (as postulated by Kotare in the instruction manual for their new 1/32 Spitfire Mk.I) that Supermarine used a unique colour of green in early Spitfire cockpit assemblies?  Kotare calls it ‘Supermarine interior greenn- matt’.  I have seen photos of a Supermarine racing airplane from the 1920s with a very vibrant colour of green (described as ‘apple green’ or ‘grass green’) in the cockpit.  Perhaps this is the same colour?

 

Best wishes!

 

 

 

Edited October 7, 2022 by Lusitanian

[Graham Boak]

This is not a new suggestion, and some kind of light green has also been described for interiors of the Walrus.  Given the multiple nature of similar references, and knowledge that there was such a colour, whether Light Grey Green or not, it would seem entirely likely that Supermarine was using up established stoicks,  Just what precisely "apple green" may mean is open to doubt!  Would that be the same green as on LNER Darlington engines?  Probably not.  Paul did garner a number of previously suggested matches for this colour; whether any of them matched what Supermarine was using is unknown.

[dromia]

Where does "Eau de Nil" sit, if at all, in this discussion?

[iang]

There are no page or file references in the Lucas article (an annoying habit he shares with Huntley). However, having trawled through my copy of Morgan and Shacklady, I have found the part referring to the AMO that Lucas has not been able to identify. The full context provides for more than one interpretation, in my view:

 

"An Air Ministry order for 19 May 1937 specified protective and camouflage schemes for all new aeroplanes. All aluminium parts to be protected by ADM 324, steel parts by ADM 323, aluminium parts other than those constructed of Alclad to be anodised, contact surfaces to be treated with chromac jointing paste (Duralac) and assembled wet, organic protectives to be applied in accordance with DTD 902.  All components  and parts to be finally protected with one coat of  yellow chromate  to DTD 260, followed by a finishing coat pigmented  with aluminium to DTD  260 unless otherwise stated.  So every Spitfire before camouflage and delivery  had to be painted aluminium overall. Cockpit interior to be finished in grey green cellulose enamel to DTD 63  with the aircraft exterior in camouflage finish  in accordance with the official drawing. Fabric to be treated with Cellon scheme X."

 

Eric B Morgan and Edward Shacklady, Spitfire The History (Key Publishing, 1987, p.45)

 

It seems to me that the first part of this quote until the sentence beginning  "So every Spitfire" is a direct precis of the AMO.  The part referring to grey green may, or may not be, directly taken from the AMO.

[iang]

On 05/10/2022 at 23:16, Kari Lumppio said:

Hi!

Finland did order Blenheim bombers in 1936. Original documents tell about paints used:

Interiors - Cockpit Green consisting of:

1 layer Primer 2SB 591

1 layer Cockpit Green Cerrux DTD 260

 

This information from a fellow researcher. I try remember to ask him if the referred document was dated. Will be travelling few days, so likely no quick answers.

Edit

Got the answer. Hallinportti aviation museum has or at least did have binder titled "Finnish Blenheims" where the paint information quoted above comes. The museum is small and open by appointment outside June-July. No copying machine there and back then the friend's only option was manually written notes.  No date recorded, only paint information. His recollection is that the document was from year 1937. This still needs verification. I might be able to visit there during coming months if only I will have time for it when nearby the museum. My latest visit there was 1986.

 

Cheers,

Kari

Interesting Kari.  I wonder if the difference in nomenclature (Cockpit Green versus Grey Green) indicates a different colour?

[Graham Boak]

3 hours ago, dromia said:

Where does "Eau de Nil" sit, if at all, in this discussion?

Paul mentions it as a possibility in passing.  The problem remains is that it is not in the RAF Vocabulary of Stores.  At least, as s far as we know.  This was also true of any "apple green", and any other lighter interior, but it now seems that a Light Grey Green did exist.

 

On 10/5/2022 at 11:16 PM, Kari Lumppio said:

 

Interiors - Cockpit Green consisting of:

1 layer Primer 2SB 591

1 layer Cockpit Green Cerrux DTD 260

 

I wonder if the Cerrux suggests that the term Cockpit Green" is Cerrux's trade name rather than the AM's terminology.

 

To move aside slightly, do you also have access to the name of the underside colour used on Mk.IVs, or were these all delivered in Night anyway?  This does seem to have been a very early use of Sky or some equivalent.  Identifying it would be very informative.

[Dave Fleming]

Regarding the Spitfire colour, I recall it being first raised in the PSL book on building the 1/24th mk I (who suggested using Sky). I don't know if anyone did any archaeology on K9942 when she was restored by the Medway Aircraft Preservation Society . MAPS show some pictures of the cmplleted aircraft, but it would be fascinating to see some strip down pitures

 

[Troy Smith]

 

 

 

@iang   I mentioned this in conversation,  I know it's not an answer as to 'when' but since the discussion is drifting a bit.  I said about commenst on varitions on cockpit colour in a recovered Wellington

 

I found this, https://forum.largescalemodeller.com/topic/2940-raf-interior-colours-ww-ii/#elControls_39839_menu

 

"When researching my cockpit projects I could have ordered off this colour off the shelf in the UK. Plenty of those getting rebuild. Problem was that is very expensive. So I looked for an alternative. I had an original part from a Halifax crash with the interior colour still in good nick. I took off a small layer off the top and there was a very good sample. It was lighter and greener than what is taken as gospel. My Halifax cockpit looks lighter and greener as a result. When we recovered a Wellington wreck some years ago we found three variants of this colour. Herman ( you know) did not believe me. We also have wooden bits from a beaufighter that looks very much lighter. Pity Edgar pulled out of the forum community.

Cees"

is this @Cees Broere ?    

I think this was the original posting I reacalled

https://www.key.aero/forum/historic-aviation/62324-ww2-raf-cockpit-green-specs-fluffy

 

"Last year I was standing on top of a six foot pile of Wellington Mk III wreckage selecting interesting items for identification and display in our museum, when a friend of mine (who is also a member of the IPMS SIG RAF/USAAF) vistited. When I showed him a piece of wreckage with dark green interior (looking like the American shade) paint he insisted that that was not the correct colour for the Wellington, even when I pulled out several other bits with interior green paint varying from very light green to almost very dark green he kept insisting that I was pulling his leg"

 

"We've found the same thing on fuselage parts for the Whitley - several different shades of interior green. We'll probably go for the prettiest ;)"

 

  

4 hours ago, Dave Fleming said:

Regarding the Spitfire colour, I recall it being first raised in the PSL book on building the 1/24th mk I (who suggested using Sky). I don't know if anyone did any archaeology on K9942 when she was restored by the Medway Aircraft Preservation Society . MAPS show some pictures of the cmplleted aircraft, but it would be fascinating to see some strip down pitures

Dave, the following quotes maybe of use then.

  

On 05/09/2012 at 12:15, Edgar said:

This is a piece from a recently unearthed Spitfire; a few years ago, we were given access to some parts taken off a Mk.I, which was subsequently completely rebuilt, and found that the interior colour exactly matched the Humbrol colour chip for 90 in their range (90 has since been re-formulated to match Sky.)

There was a wartime Interior Grey-Green, but, so far, no colour samples appear to have surfaced; remember that British Standards had no input into wartime colours, so any B.S. colour should be viewed with caution (though not necessarily with suspicion,) and that includes Aircraft Grey-Green (Humbrol 78.)

When K9942 was rebuilt, at Rochester, for the RAF Museum, they had to have the paint matched and specially mixed; unfortunately no samples were retained, so that avenue is closed off.

 

 

On 08/09/2012 at 10:50, John said:

I had a go at matching the apple green/Eau-de-Nil interior shade described by Cross and Scarborough in their book on the Airfix 1/24th scale Spitfire. Their recipe was "Humbrol No.1 Eau-de-Nil gloss with a slight touch of gloss Lime no.38"

 

from 

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234925615-spitfire-interior-colours/

sadly, many dead pics.

 

There is this thread

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234926749-spitfire-interiors-apple-green-x4422

 

but with Photobucketed pics,...  @Smithy  any chance of a repost? 

 

this still has some images

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235077025-1940-bob-and-earlier-spitfire-seats/

 

this Life magazine colour image of a Mk.Va in I think May 1941

Spitfire in England by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

if you clcik it, you can just see inside the cockpit and the the door flap, and it's a pretty pale colour.  Yes, I know WW2 colour, but the overall balance of everything else look good to me.  Note the inside of the radio hatch and gun covers hatches are aluminium paint. 

 

US color photo

"Spitfire-AA963 in the U.S.A.

This Spitfire Mk.V was shipped to the States in Feb. 1942 for evaluation purposes.The programme was conducted at Wright Field,Dayton, Ohio and it is probaly where this photo was taken."

note cockpit door in comparions to spinner and Sky band. 

Spitfire-AA963 in the U.S.A. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

"Spitfire Mk. IIa, 1941.

412 (Canadian) Sqn.Spitfire Mk IIa at RAF Digby, Lincolnshire, 1941.

From Cine film, Britain at War by Rosie Newman, IWM."

 

Spitfire Mk. IIa, 1941. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

same plane?

Spitfire Mk. IIa, 1941. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

possibly 

The serial for this Spitfire is very likely P8086

http://www.rwrwalker.ca/RAF_owned_p9999.html

"P8086 Supermarine Vickers, Castle Bromwich Spitfire II Operated by No. 412 (F) Squadron, RCAF, from 27 July to October 1941, coded "VZ*B".  Later converted to Mk. V."

 

Perhaps a different colour at Castkle Bromwich?

 

trop Spitfire 

Spitfire pilot by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

"One last word before take-off in his Spitfire Mark IX, BR600 `SH-V', of No 64 Squadron, at Fairlop airfield in Essex."

Spitfire Pilot. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

said to be 1944

Spitfire camera, c1944. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

 

This may help those with neat colour software  @Casey

"

Something for those who like to analyse colours with computers. Genuine Pantone fan page with samples of pure yellow, magenta, cyan and black. White is also provided with the page."

 

Hurricane in Finland.  Unrestored.

from

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/52968-hurricane-mk1-cockpit-colour/

 

Hope some is of use/interest. 

 

[gingerbob]

24 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

same plane?

 

No, on the second, the upper right corner of the 'Z' overlaps the roundel.  And first photo: "Who nicked my hood?!"

[Cees Broere]

@Troy, indeed it was me, and as mentioned based on recovered wreckage from various early/late RAF aircraft.

very interesting topic.

Cees

[spitfire]

Great post Troy, full of information and nicely presented.

 

Cheers

 

Dennis

[derekS]

Ref. the third picture down as posted by Troy,very strange grey on the fuselage exterior.

Looks even lighter than MSG.

 

Derek S

[jimmaas]

Just a note re AA963 in Troy's post - this was "Borough of Southgate"  and once in U.S. hands was re-camouflaged in OD with Medium Green edging splotches.

  

[Phoenix44]

On 08/10/2022 at 17:26, jimmaas said:

Just a note re AA963 in Troy's post - this was "Borough of Southgate"  and once in U.S. hands was re-camouflaged in OD with Medium Green edging splotches.

  

And apparently had its wheels nicked for some reason?

[Phoenix44]

I'm.sure this must have been answered many times before so apologies for asking it again, but what's the reddish stick thing in front of the windscreen on the colour shot of the Va?

[KevinK]

44 minutes ago, Phoenix44 said:

And apparently had its wheels nicked for some reason?

They shipped it via Liverpool.....

[KevinK]

41 minutes ago, Phoenix44 said:

what's the reddish stick thing in front of the windscreen on the colour shot of the Va?

I'm not sure, but it's not part of the aircraft.  My guess would be a cup/can of some sort, resting against the base of the windscreen as it's about the only place on the outside of the Spit fuselage where you could do that.

[Phoenix44]

19 hours ago, KevinK said:

I'm not sure, but it's not part of the aircraft.  My guess would be a cup/can of some sort, resting against the base of the windscreen as it's about the only place on the outside of the Spit fuselage where you could do that.

Something he's pulled out of or is going to stick in the cockpit perhaps?