Merlin powered Westland Whirlwind?

[gamevender]

 

 

While waiting for something to dry during a modeling session with a friend of mine, he threw this at me and told me to get busy. Well, I putzed with it just killing time really, but then had a brain cramp. Since the engines were the problem with this aircraft, I decided to give it new ones. I got a couple Merlin nacelles from the spares box and blended them into the ones on the kit. I know in reality that Merlins were in short supply and destined for Lancasters and Spits, but what if..? I’m sure other structural and aerodynamic changes would have been necessary for a variety of reasons, but I have no idea what those would have been, so we’ll just go with this for now, ok? Note that this is one the first versions of this kit released and it was pretty primitive and since it was just for a lark, I cut a few corners and wasn't as careful as I might normally have been. The decals were just cobbled together from spares. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Pete Robin]

There were worse ideas that got into production!

Nicely done tho, It has a certain fascination about it.

Regards

Pete

 

[wellsprop]

Love it, brilliant what-if!

 

The Merlin engines certainly outweigh the slender fuselage, somewhat.

 

12 minutes ago, gamevender said:

Since the engines were the problem with this aircraft

 

I’m sure other structural and aerodynamic changes would have been necessary for a variety of reasons, but I have no idea what those would have been

 

If you're interested in some answers to the above, the following video may provide some, the real reasons for the Whirlwinds failure are fascinating (it's one of the reasons I love the Whirlwind - Westlands had a habit of making weird and wonderful fixed wing aircraft).

 

 

[Spitfire31]

Very neat whif! One though when seeing those massive nacelles is that a Merlin Whirlwind might have needed a) a wider chord fin and 2) perhaps locating the cockpit further back…

 

And thanks to wellsprop for the heads up on the video and the articles! Interesting stuff!

 

Kind regards,

 

Joachim

[Troy Smith]

4 hours ago, gamevender said:

Since the engines were the problem with this aircraft,

The Peregrine was fine, but RR was busy making mostly Merlins, and the Whirlwind was the only thing using them.

4 hours ago, gamevender said:

I decided to give it new ones. I got a couple Merlin nacelles from the spares box and blended them into the ones on the kit. I know in reality that Merlins were in short supply and destined for Lancasters and Spits

I don't think there was a supply problem of them

4 hours ago, gamevender said:

, but what if..?

And there were plans to use Merlins.....  the chap you want on this is @brewerjerry,  and I've not time to go down this rabbit hole at the mo, but if you google "britmodeller westland whirlwind merlin" it has been discussed before....

[gamevender]

I watched that video and lost confidence in it's veracity when it was talking about the RR engines and kept showing, through the whole film never mind, production lines and people working on radial engines, which no RR engines ever were. The Peregrine engine was fine, but just wasn't powerful enough nor in supply enough, for various reasons that can be debated, to be available for this aircraft. And why are we debating all this silliness when it was presented as a "what it" aircraft?

[Tomcat101]

Great idea.  I always like the Whirlwind.  Nice job with the kit.

[kapam]

Nice "what-if". 😀

The bulky engines hanging out front bring "Popeye" the sailor man to mind, for some reason.  🤪

[brewerjerry]

8 hours ago, Spitfire31 said:

Very neat whif! One though when seeing those massive nacelles is that a Merlin Whirlwind might have needed a) a wider chord fin and 2) perhaps locating the cockpit further back…

 

And thanks to wellsprop for the heads up on the video and the articles! Interesting stuff!

 

Kind regards,

 

Joachim

Hi

    Westlands offered the air min a merlin xx version in jan 41, but it was declined 

 

    apparently the only issue westlands had was having to sort the undercarriage retraction problems

 

( source info in a file at the NA at kew ) 

 

   presumably the bigger engine interfered with the undercarrage bay ?  

 

  i corresponded with a guy from  westland drawing office, who said he designed the merlin xx engine nacelles, unfortunately he didn't recall if they were lanc type engine pods or

' peregrine shape '   or if the wing radiators were still used 

 

  of interest he stated the original peregrine nacelle was able to accept the early mark merlin

 

    he also designed the bomb carrying mod used by the whirlwinds

 

   cheers

     jerry

 

P.S.

 

       if you want another what if bristol offered radial engines for the whirlwind

 

 also in a file at the NA kew there is the mention of alternative american engines could be used

 

 

Edited October 5, 2022 by brewerjerry

[kiseca]

If ever an aircraft looked over-engined, this is it 😆. I guess a pair of huge American radials would look even more over the top on a Whirlwind. Those Merlin pods certainly highlight how slim and slender the rest of the aircraft actually is!

 

I've always had a soft spot for the Whirlwind ever since I first saw one in one of those old war comics that used to be popular (probably Air Ace in this case).

 

It's an excellent conversion, well executed esp. considering the circumstances and short build time that you had! Nice work and a great what-if.

[Wulfman]

Great “Whatifery”, this would have been a real hot ship !

 

Wulfman

[georgeusa]

Great "What If" project.  Seems like a no brainer to do in real life.  I do understand the shortage of Merlins in regard to the demand, but how hard would the concept have been?

[corsaircorp]

Good idea !!

Great build !! Awesome job Man !!

Sincerely.

CC

 

[Selwyn]

On 10/4/2022 at 7:01 PM, Pete Robin said:

There were worse ideas that got into production!

Nicely done tho, It has a certain fascination about it.

Regards

Pete

 

They did build a Merlin powered whirlwind it was called the Welkin!

 

 

Selwyn

[ColinChipmunkfan]

What a great 'what if' I always wondered why they didn't try putting Merlins in when the original engines didn't work out.  Nice to see what it might have looked like.😀

Colin

[Eric Mc]

17 hours ago, georgeusa said:

Great "What If" project.  Seems like a no brainer to do in real life.  I do understand the shortage of Merlins in regard to the demand, but how hard would the concept have been?

Very hard.

 

It was looked at but basically the weights, balances, centre of gravity etc would have been changed to such an extent that the whole airframe would have needed changing - effectively becoming a new aircraft.

 

And that is really what DID end up happening. In many ways, the de Havilland Mosquito became that aircraft. And Westland themselves did evolve a Merlin powered descendant of the Whirlwind in the form of the Welkin.  However, it arrived too late in World War 2 to be ordered into large scale production.

[Graham Boak]

Something of a hoary old chestnut this one.  The problem with the undercarriage is not that the engine is encroaching on its space but that the heavier engine is pushing the cg forward and so that the u/c is thus too far aft - as is the wing.  To correct this needs a longer fuselage and/or a bigger tail.  (Conjuring up pictures of a Delanne Whirlwind?  Free offer for the WIF enthusiast.)   However, the problems haven't finished there.  The Merlins require larger propellers, so a wider span centre-section is needed and a taller undercarriage.  This will provide more room for a wider span radiator but as the Whirlwind (probably) had a shallower wing than the Mossie we are looking at an even larger span increase.  Or perhaps a thicker centre-section, which wouldn't help the drag.  Then there is need to consider where to put the additional fuel and oil.  Size and weight are steadily increasing.  This isn't a Whirlwind any more.

 

If this begins to sound like a Welin, if perhaps somewhat less extreme, that should be no surprise.  ............

 

The Whirlwind had two real problems.  Firstly, Westland's slow development times.  It was too late for the battle where it really could have shown any value.  This can read across into expectations for developments.  Secondly, the production aircraft couldn't match the prototype's performance.  This was generally blamed upon the engines, but a recent suggestion was that the Dh propellers suffered from compressibility problems - the prototype had Rotols.

[Rob G]

Further, quite interesting, discussion on the type re Merlins, prop differences etc... 

 

https://www.dingeraviation.net/westland/whirlwind.html

[alt-92]

On 10/5/2022 at 10:44 AM, kiseca said:

I guess a pair of huge American radials would look even more over the top on a Whirlwind.

Grumman's gotchu covered

[Dave Swindell]

Times 2

 

[kiseca]

Those look almost as crazy as a Gee Bee!

[Pinback]

Outrageous and brilliant! Love it

 

Maybe there should be a group build where Merlin's are grafted onto various airframes. Now where was that Tiger Moth kit I have in the stash....

[kiseca]

8 hours ago, Pinback said:

Outrageous and brilliant! Love it

 

Maybe there should be a group build where Merlin's are grafted onto various airframes. Now where was that Tiger Moth kit I have in the stash....

That could go both ways. 4 Merlins on Concorde perhaps?

[noelh]

Interesting idea. But my first thought from looking at it was that the first time the pilot opened the throttles for take off. The tail would lift and the prop blades  would scatter in all directions as they dug into the runway. 

 

Confirmed by @Graham Boak and other knowledgeable contributors.

 

That's why I enjoy these forums. It may only be  fun and nicely presented WHIF but I  learned something.

 

That's always good.

[Flankerman]

Talking of Merlins (and going off at a complete tangent)........

 

Which aircraft made its firts flight powered by a RR Kestrel - and its 'last' flight powered by a RR Merlin ??

 

Ken