Spitfire Mk.VIII RAAF A58-606 (ZP-W)

[Giorgio N]

39 minutes ago, Vlad said:

@Graham Boak I'm looking at this from the point of view of buying some camouflage masks, so maybe the variations are exaggerated by the manufacturer, but compare the below. As I said the pattern is essentially the same, but there are differently shaped demarcations, particularly on the engine cowling and fuselage starboard side below the cockpit. Or are these just the variations Giorgio means due to applying dark earth?

 

The camo pattern on this aircraft was very unusual, most pictures of Spitfire VIIIs in SEAC show patterns that are the same seen on JE-J, that was the standard pattern for Spitfires around that time. This one is an exception.

 

Personally I would follow the pattern illustrated in Eduard's instructions

 

Edited: Spitfire VIIIs left the factory in either the Desert Scheme or the Day Fighter Scheme depending on timeframe. In both SEAC and Australia the schemes were modified to suit local requirements and this meant that most of the existing scheme was retained in most cases. With late Australian Aircraft the DFS was retained completely, it was only the markings that were altered. This of course resulted in changes to the scheme (like covering the original RAF roundels and later modifications added to this... however the main pattern was generally retained in those areas not affected by these changes. Something similar happened in SEAC so the vast majority of aircraft would still show a pattern similar to the original one

 

Edited October 6, 2022 by Giorgio N

[Graham Boak]

For the example shown, what has happened is that the large B roundel on the upper wing has been painted over in Dark Earth paying no respect to the intended pattern, which should have included Dark Green.  The RAAF did not have such small roundels, so this effect does not occur so obviously, but local differences could still have appeared.

 

There is a qualification about some RAAF Spitfires, where local rules in Australia differed from those ruling in the combat zone.  There is a story (told in Kookaburra's RAAF Camouflage and Marking) of a unit having to remove the camouflage from their Spitfires for a bare metal scheme, only to have to replace the camouflage when arriving in more northern territories.  It seems likely that this unit would be unlikely to produce an exact match to the original pattern.  Perhaps Magpie22 can say more on this?

 

Incidentally, the RAAF required that the finish, of whatever kind, be polished smooth so that a dry cheesecloth would slide off of its own accord.  How long this lasted in New Guinea is another question altogether.

[Giorgio N]

According to Peter's book in the Eduard set, those aircraft stripped to natural metal were recamouflaged in Foliage Green over Sky Blue, so no problem in following the previous pattern for these.

 

[Vlad]

What about the difference in the pattern on the top of the engine cowling between those masking sets? Is this due to in-field camouflage reapplication, or a possible variation of the standard factory scheme?

[Graham Boak]

The pattern on the engine cowling looks very much like how I paint my Spitfires, and whereas I must admit to a certain free-hand approach I did think that I was following the normal pattern.  I can imagine differences arising in the way that a painter will move from a side to a top because of the curve, but that's really guessing.

 

I must admit not having allowed for this repaint of roundels in SEAC Spitfires, but then views of the upper surfaces are not exactly common.  Something to consider on my next two. 

[Vlad]

The pattern looks quite different to me, with that JE-J having a long sweeping curve, with the green bulging back towards the centerline then coming down on the starboard side well aft of the exhaust stacks. The SEAC one has this green section much smaller, and intersecting the stacks.

 

I realise I'm very much nitpicking here, I think as far as my purchasing goes the IXc mask is probably the safer bet.

 

The larger roundel overpainting is a detail I am debating whether to put the time into, a lot of masking effort for what would amount to a narrow ring of foliage green and DSG.

 

I usually freehand this kind of camo, as a brush painter this isn't normally an issue. But I wanted to try a mask in this case to take some of the effort out of tracing the shapes while maintaining a thin and even finish, so I can do all that Eduard surface detail justice.

Edited October 6, 2022 by Vlad

[Giorgio N]

25 minutes ago, Vlad said:

What about the difference in the pattern on the top of the engine cowling between those masking sets? Is this due to in-field camouflage reapplication, or a possible variation of the standard factory scheme?

 

The pattern on the engine cowling on the SEAC aircraft shown in those masks is unusual and not common. Have a look at these pictures of aircraft from 136 Squadron in SEAC, they show the standard pattern as seen on the Mk.IX

 

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Spitfire/RAF-136Sqn.html

 

Not saying that there weren't aircraft with a different pattern of some kind, there are several examples, but lacking any pictures of a subject I'd fo with the standard pattern as this was seen much more often

[Vlad]

Turns out my question about SEAC camo was moot anyway. The vinyl mask pieces don't actually match the instruction sheet nose cowl pattern and instead follow the usual RAF one 😂

[Peter Roberts]

 

 

For those interested in building the plane as is at Biggin Hill. Note absence of cannon blisters on wings. Looks like two fuel tanks in each wing with fuel caps and from memory 'FUEL 100 OCTANE' stencils on each tank. Not a lot of stencilling on the plane's upper surfaces - didn't get to look underneath. Also the black walkways on the wing root each side.

 

I can highly recommend a visit to Biggin Hill. The team there are great! Even if you don't get to fly the Spitfire, the restoration hangar is brilliant and a guided tour is well worth the money IMHO. 

 

Edited October 8, 2022 by Peter Roberts

[TonyOD]

What's with the two different shades of green in Eduard's callouts for the "Grey Nurse" scheme? Weird. 

[Giorgio N]

56 minutes ago, TonyOD said:

What's with the two different shades of green in Eduard's callouts for the "Grey Nurse" scheme? Weird. 

 

If you mean the two greens in the camo, one is the Dark Green of the original factory camouflage while the other is the green used in Australia to cover the original markings

[TonyOD]

2 minutes ago, Giorgio N said:

If you mean the two greens in the camo, one is the Dark Green of the original factory camouflage while the other is the green used in Australia to cover the original markings

 

That's interesting. I'm planning to build another Far East Spit from the Mk VIII Profipack box, MD280/DG-R of 155 Squadron. Eduard's callouts give the same green and brown as for their early Spitfires. I wonder if the green should be this Aussie-style green? 

[Giorgio N]

1 hour ago, TonyOD said:

 

That's interesting. I'm planning to build another Far East Spit from the Mk VIII Profipack box, MD280/DG-R of 155 Squadron. Eduard's callouts give the same green and brown as for their early Spitfires. I wonder if the green should be this Aussie-style green? 

 

Not the Australian paints for a SEAC Spitfire: these had their factory scheme modified in India with paints supposed to match the proper MAP ones: aircraft in Desert Scheme received Dark Green over the Mid Stone, aircraft in DFS received Dark Earth over the Ocean Grey. Generally pictures of these aircraft don't show variations in the areas where the scheme was modified, if there are I'd just use a slightly different version of the original paint. 

[TonyOD]

Thanks @Giorgio N, that’s very useful to know! 

[Hornet133]

'What's with the two different shades of green in Eduard's callouts for the "Grey Nurse" scheme?'

 

The 2 Green scheme has been debunked long ago. It was something Pentland invented because he did not understand that the HF.Mk.VIIIs used by 457 (the Grey Nurse ones) had been delivered in DFS (Dark Green and Ocean Grey upper surfaces) colours, and they were not overpainted when issued to 457 Sqn. 

[Ed Russell]

1 hour ago, Hornet133 said:

2 Green scheme

I thnk he means two different shades of green actually used as per @Giorgio N 's explanation above. Dark Green and Foliage Green.

[Giorgio N]

There's no suggestion of any 2-green scheme in Eduard's instructions, it's the aircraft in Day Fighter Scheme that feature two greens (and two greys, as the original Ocean Grey was also covered with local paints to adapt the markings)

[Giorgio N]

Just for interest, these are the instructions in the Eduard "Aussie Eight" special edition, dedicated to the Spit VIII in Australian service (1/72 but the 1/48 should have the same subjects). They may have already been posted in this same thread but worth posting again...

 

https://www.eduard.com/out/media/2119.pdf

 

 

 

[Vlad]

I've already painted the Foliage Green section, don't tell me it's wrong! 😂

[TonyOD]

2 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

these are the instructions in the Eduard "Aussie Eight" special edition,

 

What an amazing offer of schemes!