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Spitfire Mk.VIII RAAF A58-606 (ZP-W)


Vlad

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I'm in the middle of an Eduard 1/48 Spitfire Mk.VIII build, that I want to finish in the scheme that the 2-seat restorarion TE308 is currently paying homage to, A58-606 ZP-W of the RAAF:

 

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However this scheme is inconsistent with Eduard's instructions from their "Ausse Eight" box for this aircraft (Schemes 15 and 16). Differences identified are:

 

  • spinner, fuselage band and code letters should be Sky, not White?
  • Eduard scheme 16 shows the white leading edges on wings painted over by the time the fuselage tail band and larger shark mouth are present
  • it seems on this aircraft specifically, the "Grey Nurse" writing and the card on the rudder are also overpainted by the time it has the larger shark mouth
  • alternatively, Eduard scheme 15 shows the aircraft with the white wing leading edges, "Grey Nurse" writing and tail card, but in this configuration no rear fuselage band and a narrower shark mouth (and a red spinner)

 

Eduard's schemes for reference:

 

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Are Eduard correct on these counts, or Biggin Hill's repaint?

 

If the modern aircraft is "incorrect", this leaves me a little torn as to whether I want my model historic to the original single seater Mk.VIII, or some compromise that keeps the appearance of the 2-seater. Unless of course there is a plausible in-beween where the features align.

 

Thanks in advance for any feedback/info on this topic.

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A58-606 on Morotai in April 1945.

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/OG2410

 

Aircraft history from ADF Serials site. Note she underwent brief repairs in Aug 1945. Possibly repainted?

 

“Arrived in Australia on SS Chanda 12/09/44. Rec 3AD ex UK 18/09/44. Rec 457 Sqn RAAF and coded ZP-W 20/12/44. Damaged by shrapnel when Liberator exploded on take-off at Morotai Strip 24/02/45. Repaired by unit. Landing accident on 14/07/45 ,when aircraft was belly landed at Labuan strip following damage from AAA over Keningau. Pilot was Sqn Ldr B D Watson . Rec 9 RSU 03/08/45. Rec 457 Sqn RAAF 04/08/45 for repair. Rec 6AD Storage ex 457 Sqn RAAF 30/10/45. Stored Cat C 22/03/46. Authorised Write-off 22/05/46. Stored Cat E 01/10/46. Passed to DAP 07/11/47. SOC 15/11/48.”

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The book included in Eduard's "Aussie Eight" box features pictures of both schemes and the instructions match these pictures.

The markings applied to TE308 today do not match the pictures in several aspects, I would go with Eduard's instructions (that are the result of research by Peter Malone, who knows a lot on the subject)

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Ditto Peter Malone for the real gen.  However, looking at that photo the codes don't seem to be pure white, perhaps a light shade of Sky?  There's no reason to suggest Sky spinner or band, these being UK Fighter Command requirements not RAAF.

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2 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

The book included in Eduard's "Aussie Eight" box features pictures of both schemes and the instructions match these pictures.

The markings applied to TE308 today do not match the pictures in several aspects, I would go with Eduard's instructions (that are the result of research by Peter Malone, who knows a lot on the subject)

 

As I feared, shouldn't have doubted that Eduard based their schene on solid research.

 

45 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

Ditto Peter Malone for the real gen.  However, looking at that photo the codes don't seem to be pure white, perhaps a light shade of Sky?  There's no reason to suggest Sky spinner or band, these being UK Fighter Command requirements not RAAF.

 

I suppose white was used as an ID marking in the RAAF, on wing leading edges and whole tail sections. So perhaps the band would have been white in keeping with this, and the spinner just for consistency and paint availability?

 

42 minutes ago, gingerbob said:

Personally, I like it in Ewen's link. Looks eager and almost friendly, in a toothy way.

 

 

I prefer the larger shark mouth look 🙂

 

I think based on the above the compromise I might go for is the later scheme with large shark mouth, no white leading edges but white band and spinner, and "grey nurse" + "ace of spades" retained for visual interest even if erroneous.

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With the cooperation of its owners we looked at TE308 in great detail for our 1/72 kit (temporarily OOP) and found many differences in colours and markings. It gives the same general impression as a wartime one but differs in pretty much everything. It is a beautiful restoration and I would love a ride in it 😃

52397172247_a1ce5aeb26.jpg

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Vlad,

 

I'm not quite clear as to whether you intend to build your model as TE308 or A58-606, Bruce Watson's kite, (CO of 457 Sqn at that time and he was responsible for the instigation of the Grey Nurse shark scheme).

 

If you intend the latter PM me with your email, as I can help with info and photos. The aircraft markings changed several times, but the basic paint work remained the same. Basically, if you want a nice clean A/C, the small shark mouth version is the way to go. If you want an aircraft showing the wear and tear of of six months of hard flying look for one of the late war large shark mouth variants.

 

Peter Malone

 

Edited by Magpie22
corrected spelling
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18 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

Band and spinner in the later scheme are described as RAAF Sky Blue.

They were clearly not white as both look darker than the white of the roundel in pictures

 

How different is RAAF Sky Blue compared to RAF Sky? Something like Humbrol 23 "Duck Egg Blue" that's a bit paler than Humbrol 90 Sky?

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2 hours ago, Vlad said:

How different is RAAF Sky Blue compared to RAF Sky?

Think RLM 65 Hellblau. I have compared a genuine piece of RAAF Sky Blue K3/195 and it matched a 30+ year old tin of Humbrol HG05 exactly. FS25550 is the nearest FS match.

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On 10/2/2022 at 3:16 AM, gingerbob said:

Personally, I like it in Ewen's link. Looks eager and almost friendly, in a toothy way.

 

Incidentally, the caption with that OG2410 photo is a load of man-vegetables. The photo was taken at Sattler, near Darwin, in January 1945. A58-606 was the first A/C to be painted in the Grey Nurse scheme.

Peter M

 

PS: Is this what what is called a smart editor? I wrote "man-vegetables", not, "man-vegetables". :confused:

OK so it cannot be Bo...ocks. 🙄

Edited by Magpie22
added a PS
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On 10/2/2022 at 8:51 AM, Ed Russell said:

With the cooperation of its owners we looked at TE308 in great detail for our 1/72 kit (temporarily OOP) and found many differences in colours and markings. It gives the same general impression as a wartime one but differs in pretty much everything. It is a beautiful restoration and I would love a ride in it 😃

52397172247_a1ce5aeb26.jpg

 

Ed, you don’t only get to ride in this plane, you get to fly it! Out of some place called Biggin Hill…. 😉

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10 hours ago, Peter Roberts said:

you get to fly it!

For a mere £2,975.00 upwards. A pretty good reflection of how much they cost to run. And you get the chance to buy one of our kits!

The two seaters are apparently all fitted with dual controls. TE308 is a 'genuine' T9 ex-Irish Air Corps.

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5 hours ago, Ed Russell said:

For a mere £2,975.00 upwards. A pretty good reflection of how much they cost to run. And you get the chance to buy one of our kits!

The two seaters are apparently all fitted with dual controls. TE308 is a 'genuine' T9 ex-Irish Air Corps.

Ed, closer to home there is the two seater operated by NZ Warbirds out of Ardmore near Auckland, and in a couple of years there will by a two seater in the Grace configuration being operated by Hunter Warbirds/Pays at Scone.  I have not seen anything so far on the scheme the Hunter Warbirds Spitfire will be completed in.  Prices comparatively with current exchange rates plus costs to get to the UK and back make these local ones a better proposition.  Keep buying the Powerball tickets!

 

 

 

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From RAAF archives

 

 

AFCO A3 - code letters for operational and reserve squadron (4.1.43)

...

9.   The colour of the code letters is to be Dope Camouflage Sky Blue, Ident. No. K3/195 for all aircraft.

...

Markings of aircraft.

British and Australian

(f) Full Time Day Fighter Aircraft carry a band of sky blue round fuselage immediatly forward of tail plane.

 

 

Colour of aircraft.

British and Australian

Full Time Day Fighter Aircraft will carry a band of sky blue round fuselage immediatly forward of tail plane.

 

 

 

 

 

R.A.A.F. diagram No A- 5524 sheet 1(9.5.44) Identification markings on operational and

non-operational aircraft.:

 

code letter and registration number -

Medium Sea Grey on aircraft camouflaged foliage green or night

 

 

Aircraft General Instructions

(v) Special markings:

For all single engined single seater aircraft the tail assembly, that is the complete empennage,

shall be painted matt white, flashes to be deleted. A matt white strip shall also be painted on

the leading edge of the mainplanes, approximately 9 in. wide at root thinning down to approximately 4 in. toward the tip.

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The above is generally true but if a reasonable interpretation of your photgraph shows something to the contrary - go with the photo. There were many exceptions and changes were introduced over time, not overnight.

10 hours ago, BS_w said:

Dope Camouflage Sky Blue, Ident. No. K3/195 for all aircraft.

And remember this colour notoriously faded to almost white in a short time.

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On 03/10/2022 at 21:40, Ed Russell said:

For a mere £2,975.00 upwards. A pretty good reflection of how much they cost to run. And you get the chance to buy one of our kits!

The two seaters are apparently all fitted with dual controls. TE308 is a 'genuine' T9 ex-Irish Air Corps.

They do have dual controls. I went up in the back of MJ627 with TE308 flying alongside. It was every bit as amazing as it sounds.

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Thanks all for your help with this.

 

I have an additional question regarding the camouflage pattern. Were these Mk.VIIIs for Australia painted in the European pattern or the South East Asia one but with standard day fighter colours? They're broadly similar but not identical in some details. Then again they also vary it seems between batches of the same aircraft type e.g. on Mk.IXs.

 

The photos of ZP-W don't show the wing top pattern clearly, and the sides show small variations that don't fully match either SEAC or RAF day schemes, but that could also be weathering, touch-ups etc.

Edited by Vlad
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Those aircraft left the factory in standard day fighter scheme following the standard pattern for the type. This changed slightly from aircraft to aircraft of course.

Once in Australia, certain features were covered with local paints and this is what leads to patterns that may not be immediately recognisable as the standard one.

SEAC aircraft from what I know used the same pattern although of course having Dark Earth added locally could result in slightly different patterns

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@Graham Boak I'm looking at this from the point of view of buying some camouflage masks, so maybe the variations are exaggerated by the manufacturer, but compare the below. As I said the pattern is essentially the same, but there are differently shaped demarcations, particularly on the engine cowling and fuselage starboard side below the cockpit. Or are these just the variations Giorgio means due to applying dark earth?

 

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