The less obvious US AFV in Korea and Vietnam

[KRK4m]

We all know the M4, M26 and M46 in Korea, and the M48, M551 and M113 in Vietnam.

But are there pictures of the pre-series T41 Bulldogs of their testing in Korea in 1953?

Are photos of the M59 and M114 from Vietnam known?

Did M41 # 30169845 (3CAV HQ) and M109 # 12A5365 (9-IF84) really fight in Vietnam?

There could be many more questions, but I asked the most interesting ones from my point of view.

Cheers

Michael

Edited September 28, 2022 by KRK4m

[Kingsman]

I think the T41 was too early for Korea, being developed in 1949 and committed to production in August 1950 because of Korea, yet the M41 was too late to see service in Korea because it was rushed and flawed and most of those built were embargoed in Tank Depots pending rectifications.

 

It seems that some M59s were initially deployed to Vietnam but didn't last long as it was a cheap, poor, underpowered and unreliable design and the superior M113 was available from 1960.

 

M114s were in Vietnam in small numbers but identifiably Vietnam images are rare.  Here are a couple.  These might both be ARVN.

[KRK4m]

Thanks Kingsman, but these M114s don't have white stars - that's not what I'm looking for.

I would like to find definitive confirmation or denial for the US Army use of even a small number (squadron?) of the early M41 and M47 in Korea in 1953 and the M59 and M41 in Vietnam. And also pictures of M114 with white stars (we know for sure they were there) from Indochina.

Why does every AFV diorama from Korea have to be limited to the M4, M26 and M46, and from Vietnam to the M113, M551 and M48?

Cheers

Michael

[Kingsman]

Because that is what was photographed and therefore definitive and not speculative.  The M41 story is that the initial shipment only got as far as depots in Japan before the cease-fire.  I'm sure they made it to S Korea thereafter, and M47s too, when the US began stationing garrison forces in S Korea.  And perhaps this is the source of confusion.  Just about every type of US service equipment will have been in S Korea at some point after the cease-fire.  There may well be pictures of them in Korea, but when?  We see pictures of Tortoises and A41 Centurions in Germany shortly after the end of the war but we do not claim that makes them present during the war.

 

Did everything in Vietnam carry the white star?  The M41 was certainly deployed to Vietnam with US and ARVN forces.  There are many photos: white stars notably absent.  The M114 was there for a short time with US forces, but was withdrawn by the end of 1964 in favour of the M113.  So it was only there for a few months, and that would have been the original M114 and not the M114A1 with the commander's cupola.  The M114 proved to be mechanically unreliable and underpowered with poor cross country performance and very poor survivability - especially against mine strikes.  However, ARVN did continue to operate the M114 after the US withdrew it.  I think they had about 80 of them.

 

I think you're on a hiding to nothing with the M59 in Vietnam.  The M113 was in service almost 4 years before US combat forces were deployed to Vietnam and only about a year after the US sent its first "advisers".  It wasn't even worthy of giving to ARVN!  By the time that US forces were sent the diesel M113A1 had supplanted the petrol M113 in front-line units.

[sandsmodels]

i would suggest getting the squadron signal & concord books on both wars, plenty of ideas in them

usa afvs in korea, m19 aa, m37 sp, m39 apc, to name a few less common ones.

[dcrfan]

From Vietnam Tracks Armour in Battle 1945-75 by Simon Dustin to your list of vehicles used by US forces you can add M42 Duster, M50 Ontos, M51 recovery, M60 bridge, M67 flame, M88 recovery, M728 engineer,  and XM706 armoured car (USAF),

 

SP artillery Scorpion SPAT, M53 SP, M55 SP, M108 SP, M110 SP 

 

Landing craft LVTP-5, LVTP-6

 

Many of the above are even shown with white stars

 

No US M41, M59 or M114.

Edited October 1, 2022 by dcrfan

[KRK4m]

11 hours ago, Kingsman said:

The M41 story is that the initial shipment only got as far as depots in Japan before the cease-fire.  I'm sure they made it to S Korea thereafter, and M47s too, when the US began stationing garrison forces in S Korea.  

 

Did everything in Vietnam carry the white star?  The M41 was certainly deployed to Vietnam with US and ARVN forces.  There are many photos: white stars notably absent.  The M114 was there for a short time with US forces, but was withdrawn by the end of 1964 in favour of the M113.  So it was only there for a few months, and that would have been the original M114 and not the M114A1 with the commander's cupola.  The M114 proved to be mechanically unreliable and underpowered with poor cross country performance and very poor survivability - especially against mine strikes.  However, ARVN did continue to operate the M114 after the US withdrew it.  I think they had about 80 of them.

 

I think you're on a hiding to nothing with the M59 in Vietnam...  It wasn't even worthy of giving to ARVN!  

Your explanation for the M41 and M47 confusion in Korea seems close to my way of thinking. 

As for the US M41 and M114 in Vietnam you mentioned: would it be possible to identify the units in which these vehicles were (briefly) used? M114s are mentioned in the "Vietnam memoirs" of the 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment, but I can't find the M41 units. Armory (Ukrainian kit maker) describes #30169845 as "Vietnam, 1968", but the markings on the fenders (3CAV HQ) clearly contradict this - the 3rd Cavalry Division was disbanded in 1940, and the 3rd Cavalry Regiment was deployed in Germany, not Vietnam.

As for the M59: reportedly (Arsenal of Democracy, T. Gervasi) ARVN had 866 of them in stock. Do you think they already wore Vietnamese markings at the time of unloading and did not have even a brief period of service in Indochina with US units? In Europe, the US used them until the end of the 1960s, and the national guard in the USA until 1987.

 

1 hour ago, dcrfan said:

No US M41, M59 or M114.

And this opinion is in direct opposition to what we established above. Are we going back to the starting point: I know that I know nothing?

Cheers

Michael

[Old pro]

8 hours ago, KRK4m said:

 

And this opinion is in direct opposition to what we established above. Are we going back to the starting point: I know that I know nothing?

Cheers

Michael

Probably means by U.S forces, although the M114 was used initially it quickly proved unsuitable and was withdrawn by 1964 for U.S forces, the M41 was never used by U.S forces in Vietnam but by the ARVN.

 

[John Tapsell]

The M75 APC was used towards the end of the Korean War (1953). There are occasional photos that pop up in books and online.

 

In Vietnam, the M76 Otter is largely ignored as is the M56 SPAT. The LVTP 5 gets very little love. Also, in 1972/73, a USMC Tractor Battalion equipped with the (then very new) LVTP 7 undertook three(?) beach assaults, ferrying ARVN Marines. This was after US forces had been officially withdrawn but whilst a USMC presence remained at sea in the area. Way back (early 1990s?), the IPMS USA Journal carried a letter by the former commander of the battalion, refuting the claim that no LVTP 7s were used in Vietnam and describing the raids.

 

Never seen any evidence of M59s in Vietnam with either US or ARVN units.

The only M114s deployed to Vitenam (80) equipped 4 ARVN Cavalry Squadrons and were withdrawn fairly quickly because they had poor cross-country performance in the conditions they encountered in Vietnam. An American 'Army Concept Team' evaluated the M114s used by the ARVN but that may be where the confusion arises (somebody may have assumed that the concept team was evaluating a test batch in US Army service).

 

[GruntDoc]

Interesting post-Korean war pics here, nice M-41s: Camp Kaiser

 

[Gmat]

The 25th ID deployed M41s to Thailand in the early 60s. (1962) They were 3/4 Cav M41s. I believe some M114s might have accompanied them. Pics of the 3/4 Cav and 25th ID deployed on an exercise in Thailand are around. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:M41-4th-cavalry-thailand.gif

The Squadron Signal M41 book or Hunnicutt's Light Tank book has pictures of one of the T41/M41 prototype tank negotiating a frozen rice paddy in Korea, if memory serves me right. .

Edited December 19, 2022 by Gmat

[Kingsman]

I'm pretty certain that no-one was taking a prototype tank for testing an ocean away in a war zone.

[KRK4m]

10 hours ago, Gmat said:

The 25th ID deployed M41s to Thailand in the early 60s. (1962) They were 3/4 Cav M41s. I believe some M114s might have accompanied them. Pics of the 3/4 Cav and 25th ID deployed on an exercise in Thailand are around. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:M41-4th-cavalry-thailand.gif

Well, those photos from Thailand are well known - there are quite a few of them in the publication Squadron Signal #29, some even perfectly clear. Nevertheless, the maneuvers in Thailand in 1962 are not the Vietnam War. Similarly, the presence of M114 on these maneuvers is still only a supposition.

 

 

10 hours ago, Gmat said:

The Squadron Signal M41 book or Hunnicutt's Light Tank book has pictures of one of the T41/M41 prototype tank negotiating a frozen rice paddy in Korea, if memory serves me right. .

I looked through Hunnicutt's book (vol.2, subtitled Sheridan) in the museum's library today - lots of pictures, but the T41 you mentioned in the icy paddy field isn't there. I have Squadron #29 at home and there is no such photo there either. So either your memory is failing you or there is something wrong with my Eyeball 1.1 scanner.

Cheers

Michael

[Gmat]

Sorry will try to track it down the Korea pics. Sticks to my mind as I was disappointed that the M41 wasn’t used in the Korean War and only appeared later. 
The Thailand exercise will be the closest to a VN War US Army M41. Sorry couldn’t help more. 

[Gmat]

KRK4m, sorry. it wasn't a T41/M41 but the T42 being operated over a frozen rice paddy, Wanchon, South Korea, 18 Jan 63, by the 1st Cav Div. Hunnicutt,  Patton,  p. 47. I think the date should be 1953. Will try to hunt down pics of the 25th Div (not the 3/4 Cav) sent to an exercise in Thailand, early 60s. Grant

[Kingsman]

@Gmat the M42 only entered service in 1953 and so is unlikely to have been deployed overseas in the same year.  It takes time for unit conversion to combat readiness, even if they came straight from operating the M19.  1963 sounds more correct.

[KRK4m]

4 hours ago, Kingsman said:

@Gmat the M42 only entered service in 1953 and so is unlikely to have been deployed overseas in the same year.  It takes time for unit conversion to combat readiness, even if they came straight from operating the M19.  1963 sounds more correct.

I believe @Gmat (and Hunnicutt) mean the T42 medium tank prototype that never saw service, and you are talking about the M42 Duster self-propelled anti-aircraft gun.😉

Cheers

Michael

[KRK4m]

I'm reheating an old chop, but I just got my hands on a Scottish Accurate Armour resin kit (the company name itself suggests a serious approach to the subject, and the price of 100 E would also require respect for the buyer), where the decal set clearly includes FIVE US Army M114s from the Vietnam War (and 4 from Germany). Unfortunately, the instruction sheet does not show the location of individual decals on the hull.

There are 3 vehicles with black lettering and black stars: 12B737, 12T636 and 12T665 and two with white lettering and white stars - these also have a unit allocation. One is 12AA02 named Kamikaze, numbered K33 7A-14CAV (whatever that means) and the other is 12T448 numbered CARC🔺BD I33 (I don't know what that means either).

What do you say? Can we trust them or is this another lie?

Cheers

Michael

Edited September 2, 2023 by KRK4m

[Kingsman]

Original post deleted because - like a complete Muppet - I misunderstood the post to which I replied and therefore said something entirely silly and completely irrelevant.  Yes, the title covers Vietnam and not just Korea........  Read twice, reply once........

Edited August 25, 2023 by Kingsman
Stupidity!

[KRK4m]

@Kingsman Dear, wipe your eyes, it's noon in a moment, and you're probably still asleep I was clearly talking about Vietnam, not Korea!

But to sum up - are you saying that our friends from Scotland are not as "accurate" as the name of their company suggests?

Cheers

Michael

[modelldoc]

It is not an US AFV, but this interpretation, after a reaL photo is nice:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/21603181@N08/16209259057/in/dateposted/

 

or the other side:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/21603181@N08/16395144865/in/dateposted/

 

modelldoc

[KRK4m]

On 8/24/2023 at 10:50 AM, Kingsman said:

Original post deleted because - like a complete Muppet - I misunderstood the post to which I replied and therefore said something entirely silly and completely irrelevant.  Yes, the title covers Vietnam and not just Korea........  Read twice, reply once........

OK, @Kingsman it's  good to laugh at something sometimes 😉

But now seriously: tell me what you think about these "supposedly Vietnamese" M114s from the £80 Scottish kit.

Cheers

Michael

[KRK4m]

Since no one was eager to answer, I wrote to the manufacturer of this "accurate" set. And guess what answer I got? Of course sparse - as in Scotland: Hi, The decal markings are based on period photos of actual vehicles in active service in theatre. Regards, Derek Hansen. That way he explained everything to me

I took another look at the instruction manual - you can find it at Scalemates. And there is total chaff: in the description of the K030V ("M114 Vietnam era") kit, we have a photo of a built model, on which the R/N of the machine supposedly from Vietnam (12T448) is combined with a red triangle and tac number 322, provided in the instructions for the 12T720 from Germany. Has the manufacturer himself lost control over what he does and writes?

It'll soon be a year and I'm still where I started...

Cheers

Michael