Jump to content

Curtiss color equivalents or substitutes for MAP requirements


Spitfires Forever
 Share

Recommended Posts

Greetings

Hoping to not open up a can of worms but I am looking to build a North Africa P-40 and know that US colors were different from those painted in the UK or at MU's. I imagine US colors were ANA standard and varied in shade from MAP standard. We're the US colors used more of a light sand, dark brown with neutral grey undersides? I often see US aircraft painted in MAP/RAF colors and am not sure of how correct they are.

Cheers

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, Spitfires Forever said:

I am looking to build a North Africa P-40

RAF or USAAF? 

 

As with all these questions,  be specific, ideally what actual plane(s) you are thinking about.   

 

Examples, early RAF  P-40's were delivered in US made MAP Temperate Land Scheme paints, but did get repainted with RAF desert paints. 

 

later models as posted by @BS_w had Du-Pont MAP equivalent. 

 

Some USAAF P-40's were OD/NG, but got repainted in theatre.    Did they get some in MAP equivalent paints for desert use?

 

 @Dana Bell  may get some answers.

 

 

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

RAF or USAAF? 

 

As with all these questions,  be specific, ideally what actual plane(s) you are thinking about.   

 

Examples, early RAF  P-40's were delivered in US made MAP Temperate Land Scheme paints, but did get repainted with RAF desert paints. 

 

later models as posted by @BS_w had Du-Pont MAP equivalent. 

 

Some USAAF P-40's were OD/NG, but got repainted in theatre.    Did they get some in MAP equivalent paints for desert use?

 

 @Dana Bell  may get some answers.

 

 

 

 

I thought both RAF lend lease and US aircraft were painted in equivalent/ substitute colors? I mentioned early on that so was going to build a P-40 and assumed that the aircraft were painted in the US with DuPont paints. We're the RAF aircraft repainted in MAP colors upon arrival. I'm basically looking for ANA/FS colors used for the Med/ North African colors as I mentioned in my original post.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not ANA or FS colours: the ANA standard was introduced when fighting in North Africa was over (official issue September '43 but then took some time to send card to all manufacturers), although of course many of the colours already existed in other standards. The first FS.595 dates from 1956 so it's way later, although again pre-existing colours were incorporated in the catalogue.

 

I asked about the colours used on USAAF P-40F in the MTO a few years ago and these are the answers I got:

 

 

Well, I notice now that it was ten years ago... and I still have to build that kit !

In any case to recap the answer I got was that most were in Du-Pont paints that were close enough to the proper MAP colour while some others wore different schemes.

Since you seem to be interested in the more standard RAF style desert scheme, what may be important is to understand how different these Du-Pont colours were from the actual British ones. There have been threads in this same forum discussing this, some information for example is here:

 

 

 

I'm sure there are other threads in this same forum on the subject, the internal search function is not the best but generally I get good result by typing in google a few key words followed by "Britmodeller"

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Spitfires Forever said:

I thought both RAF lend lease and US aircraft were painted in equivalent/ substitute colors?

No.

 

Aircraft bought by the British pre lead lease  were painted in US made MAP Equivalent.

 

Aircraft then supplied under lend lease carried on being painted in the US made MAP equivalent,  often while other US manufacturers supplying the British with lend-lease were then using substitute colors.

Example, Grumman carried on using US MAP equivalent, (Wildcat, Hellcat, Avenger) while when Eastern made Avengers and Wildcats, they used US substitute ANA colors.

 

Types for the USAAF got US standard schemes.    There were US types made for the British that then got diverted to the US, in US made MAP equivalent colors.

 

12 hours ago, Spitfires Forever said:

We're the RAF aircraft repainted in MAP colors upon arrival. I'm basically looking for ANA/FS colors used for the Med/ North African colors as I mentioned in my original post.

in the case of a P-40 in North Africa,  all the above could apply,  and you still have not said if you are doing a RAF or USAAF P-40,  or when,  in the case of the RAF,  Temperate Land Scheme P-40's did get repainted, but not all.  Later P-40's in US applied desert scheme would not

 

USAAF P-40's in OD/NG got repainted with US Sand in theatre.  

 

Again, the question is vague.    You just said 

On 27/09/2022 at 01:45, Spitfires Forever said:

I am looking to build a North Africa P-40

YOU possibly have a plane in mind,  I don't know what you are planning,   from many years of reading and posting on here,  your best bet unless you want to get into a long  discussion about what was applied to when, and, when, and why, and the exceptions,  ask specifically, as the answer for your questions could be a pre lend Lease Tomahawk Mk.I, in 1941 to a Lend Lease Kitty hawk Mk.III in 1942 to a USAAF P-40F in 1943 which are all possible in your question, all have different, and possibly complex answers.....

 

HTH

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I find color questions can be very complicated and color chips sent over the internet usually don't translate well optically. The P-40 in mind would be a P-40E. I assumed all P-40's sent to North Africa would have been painted in US equivalent colors but since I can't time travel I will stick to stock colors. I'm familiar with Grumman and Vought color schemes but had read that the US colors for the Med/NA theatres were quite different in shade/tonal qualities. I will just trust it to luck and avoid the color controversy in the future since it is often more speculatory than anything else. Thanks for all the advice guys

Cheers

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Spitfires Forever said:

I find color questions can be very complicated and color chips sent over the internet usually don't translate well optically. The P-40 in mind would be a P-40E. I assumed all P-40's sent to North Africa would have been painted in US equivalent colors but since I can't time travel I will stick to stock colors. I'm familiar with Grumman and Vought color schemes but had read that the US colors for the Med/NA theatres were quite different in shade/tonal qualities. I will just trust it to luck and avoid the color controversy in the future since it is often more speculatory than anything else. Thanks for all the advice guys

Cheers

 

A USAAF P-40E in North Africa would be a rare thing, not even sure I've ever seen one, most were P-40F with some P-40K. Which aircraft in particular are you planning ?

 

You are correct that the P-40s sent to North Africa in a RAF desert scheme would have had US colours, although generally these were known as substitute rather than equivalent, with the terms equivalent used for the colours agreed between US and the UK and later incorporated in the ANA Bulletin.

Of course not all P-40s went to North Africa in this scheme as a number had overall Sand as upper surfaces and there were other exceptions, The thread I linked above will describe several of these

 

In general the Du Pont paints used by Curtiss as substitute for MAP paints seem to have actually been quite similar to the British ones. The "dark earth" may have been slightly lighter and the "mid stone" is said to have been yellower but I wonder how much of that difference would have been noticeable without having an aircraft in proper MAP paints right beside.

Personally when I built a former USAAF P-40F in French markings I only slightly altered my usual "British" paints to reflect this, just to make this model that slightly different from other models of British built aircraft in the same theatre. I believe that based on the information available today even going with standard RAF paints would lead to a result pretty close to what the real aircraft would have worn in 1943.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The P-40E would be in RAF livery with my P-40K being painted in US dark tan. I figure a bit of lightening of the colors would hopefully reflect bleaching that occurred whilst being in the desert. A good example of that would be the P-40 recently found in North Africa but maybe that would be a bit too extreme exposure-wise.

Cheers

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know of any colour US Dark Tan, the Sand colour seen on P-40Fs (sorry, not Es) is quite light and would not have been seen as dark.  Any P-40Ks are more likely to have been in either the British colours or OD.

 

The comment that US Middle Stone was more yellow does seem to appear in the colour photos, particularly those of 112 Sq where it is a distinct yellow compared to the MAP colour chip.  However, photos of British aircraft in the desert also seem to show a yellowish colour - if not as strongly so as the 112 Sq Kittys.  As for the Dark Earth, the early US attempt(s) at this colour were somewhat lighter than an ideal match, but later aircraft were painted in a clearly darker shade.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

I don't know of any colour US Dark Tan, the Sand colour seen on P-40Fs (sorry, not Es) is quite light and would not have been seen as dark.  Any P-40Ks are more likely to have been in either the British colours or OD.

 

 

 

There are several pictures of P-40Ks with 57th FG that show the Sand/Neutral Grey scheme. Most famous of all is probably "13" of 66th FS, that was featured in pictures published on Life Magazine

 

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/P-40/57FG/pages/USAAF-42-46040-Curtiss-P-40K-Warhawk-57FG64FS-White-13-Robert-Jay-Overcash-Tunisia-May-1943-01.html

Edited by Giorgio N
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...