Another F-14 question...

[Harry_the_Spider]

On operational detachment did they always carry external fuel tanks under the engine intakes?

 

I like the sleek lines and think that the tanks and fuselage fairings for the Phoenix missiles spoil the look. I'll be mounting a pair of Phoenix on the pylons and would like to ditch the tanks, but only if it is accurate.

 

 

[Doom3r]

Looks like rarely but it was done:

 

PS: I've seen a lot of pictures of Iranian F-14 without the tanks (without missiles as well) so that's another possibility.

[Harry_the_Spider]

Made the decision. Tanks fitted.

[exdraken]

6 hours ago, Doom3r said:

Looks like rarely but it was done:

PS: I've seen a lot of pictures of Iranian F-14 without the tanks (without missiles as well) so that's another possibility.

The Iranians never got tanks, that is why...

Early F-14 operations also flew without them ( for lack of them ....)

Others for sure know much more though  😉

[CT7567]

13 hours ago, Harry_the_Spider said:

I like the sleek lines and think that the tanks and fuselage fairings for the Phoenix missiles spoil the look. I'll be mounting a pair of Phoenix on the pylons and would like to ditch the tanks, but only if it is accurate.

 

 

 

If by pylons you mean the wing gloves (stations 1A & 8A), and you're depicting an F-14A or F-14B, note that for AIM-54s to be operable on those stations the forward Phoenix fairings had to be present on stations 3 & 6 because they carried coolant systems required for some of the missile's electronics.  There was an "umbilical bridge" that connected the system in the forward fairings to the rear Phoenix rails (4 & 5) in the tunnel, if those were carried, and/or to the glove pylons.  Without the belly fairings AIM-54s could technically be carried on the glove stations but they wouldn't be launchable. 

 

Note all of the above applies to the A/B with AIM-54As only - I'm not sure if the issue was addressed by the upgrades to the AIM-54C or to the D-model Tomcat (or some combination of the two), but my understanding is that the D-model did not have to have the fairings loaded to carry Phoenix on the glove pylon(s).

[Thomas Bell]

Aargh! Wish I'd known. I have three sets of resin F-14 tanks with pallets, that will never be used. Also, the reason you don't see missiles and tanks on the Iranian birds is because they used them up in the Iraq war and since the sole supplier was the US, well...

They have,  however, made their own knockoff of the AIM-54, though I don't know how good it is.

Remember, the Iranian Tomcats and their weapons are from the earliest blocks of the F-14A, with the same engine stall problems and primitive radar.

[exdraken]

1 hour ago, Thomas Bell said:

Aargh! Wish I'd known. I have three sets of resin F-14 tanks with pallets, that will never be used. Also, the reason you don't see missiles and tanks on the Iranian birds is because they used them up in the Iraq war and since the sole supplier was the US, well...

They have,  however, made their own knockoff of the AIM-54, though I don't know how good it is.

Remember, the Iranian Tomcats and their weapons are from the earliest blocks of the F-14A, with the same engine stall problems and primitive radar.

Hmm I do not think ant F-14 tanks were ever delivered to Iran. 

Regarding missiles, never heard of knock-offs either but Iran integrated Hawk missiles with some success on the wing glove stations, as well as Russian R-27 missiles related with their MiG-29.... at least photos exist!

[Thomas Bell]

Yes, they attempted to make an air-to-air missile out of the Hawks we gave them (which transaction, when it got out, was a major national scandal here). It said not work, so they tried for air-to-ground, which they claimed was a success.

I have a fine resin conversion set for this, complete with dry-transfer markings for two paint schemes, and sooner or later I'll build it. It's available from Wolfpack and is loaded with goodies.

Also, there's  photo of their supposed AIM-54 copy in the Osprey book IIRC. They used their American 54s up against Iraq, where they were quite effective.

[Navy Bird]

On 25/09/2022 at 08:57, Harry_the_Spider said:

I like the sleek lines and think that the tanks and fuselage fairings for the Phoenix missiles spoil the look.

 

I agree! I think the Tomcat looks best with no tanks or armament at all. Very sleek! I only model the tanks if they had some nice squadron markings on them, like Felix the Cat for instance.

 

Cheers,

Bill

[Harry_the_Spider]

Went for the Phoenix in the fuselage anyway...

 

 

 

[exdraken]

Some nice, complementary shots of grey cats some without tanks:

 

[Doom3r]

11 hours ago, exdraken said:

Some nice, complementary shots of grey cats some without tanks:

 

Looks like the ones that did not even had a pylon there were training birds..

[bushande]

 I know it is actually not about the Iranian lot and I don't want to unnecessarily hijack this thread but there is A LOT of misconception regarding Iranian Tomcats here in this thread I'm afraid.

I hope my remarks won't come off as too snippy (please excuse if that should be the case) but as said, there's an awful lot of misinformation out there on the web regarding these elusive birds. They indeed received external fuel tanks and they also still have original AIM-54As left and they were not of the earliest blocks with the unreliable early TF-30-412 engines but received Block-90 and Block-95 Alphas and were the first to get the newer more reliable TF-30-414 engines. And their AWG-9 radars were also not more primitive than what the USN birds had. Really lots of silly nonsense floating around on the internet reg. the Persian cats.

 

I have managed to sneak into Iran a few times just a few years back between 2015 and 2019 before the situation deterriorated to the current state of affairs and managed to see and photograph some of their Tomcats. I actually planned on another try end of this year but the current upheaval and the drastic measures of the regime forbid any attempt for the sane person (according to the traveller information of our German foreign affairs ministry the Iranian regime has started to randomly arrest foreign travellers in order to use them as bargain material in case of European sanctions). Anyways I had  the chance to see and touch their Tomcats up close not too long ago and ever since the USN retired theirs I tried to follow up on these "Black Sheep" of the flock and frequently try to keep tabs on the state of their fleet. I have plenty of close ups and a halfway decent walkaround including the Phoenix (ATMs as well as live ones).

 

A few years back I managed to spend a few days at the Grumman history center in bethpage and also was able to snatch away a nice original Grumman program management plan for the whole Iran deal with info about all the deliveries by Grumman among other things. Forget what you read about them on FB and the like; 90 percent of what Western posters state is flat out BS to make us all feel better about them still flying the bird.

 

They did indeed receive tanks! As said I do own an original Grumman IIAF programm management plan (official document) and there are at least two images of a modern blue/grey IRIAF F-14 with gull grey tanks set right to it ... Just because they don't make much use of them, doesn't mean they don't have them. Here is one of the admittedly very few images of a Persian Cat with all the equipment. I circled the external tanks for reference. The blue/grey camo indicates a modern image. The tank still has the old light gull grey color. They either received them right away (most likely) or they manufactured them themselves (probable) or just both .... I think you hardly ever see an IRIAF bird with ext. FTs just because they don't need them. These Tomcats are exclusively used for air defence over domestic Iranian soil. An aquaintence who did two tours to the Persian gulf told me that they often saw them on their SB radar but they never went feet wet. On one occassion they seemed to do a mass radar sweep with as many as 40+ AWG-9 signals on at the same time but he only ever saw that once. Why use draggy tanks if you only operate within your own air space saturated with ample air refuel capacity, lots of bases around you and enough ground based intercept radars of old school so you can limit your loiter time. Your job is just to do air fighting from a distance if all goes well, why limit your maneuverability with something you don't need for above reasons and that just adds drag?! There's more but I can't find 'em right away.

 

Here are images of the Grumman delivery list to Iran: I circled everything relevant ....

 

 

 

That the Iranians wouldn't have gotten what they paid for or that essential stuff wasn't delivered is as much a modern myth as the one that Grumman engineers sabotaged all of their Tomcats on their way out upon the revolution. Only minimal equipment was not deliverred to Iran. In fact the level of Tomcat-related equipment delivered to Iran was so high that members of congress started to worry and launched petitions to limit weapons export to Iran, albeit only with limited success. What they could prevent was the sale of AWACS which would have boosted Irans capability way too much coupled with their Tomcats.

 

All in all, their Tomcats are nice and regular Block-90 (serials 160299 / 3-6001 to 160328 / 3-6030) and Block-95 (serials 160329 / 3-6031 to 160377 / 3-6079) airframes with the Block-90 serials brought up to Block 95 standard by Grumman in Iran right after delivery even before VF-84 received their Block-95 birds as the first within the USN. They are exactly identical to the USN machines. There really wasn't much left out according to Grumman. The AN/ARA-62 ILS system was left out (just needed for the boat and only works there actually, doesn't read civilian or land based ILS), the KIT-1A, KIR-1A and KY-28 Secure Voice system was left off (again, only a USN specific system) and the APX-81-M1E IFF interrogator was obstructed to just interrogate Soviet built aircraft. There was one ECM suite left off but at that time the Israelis (which were on very good terms with the Shah in the 70s) took care of that and had that covered for Iran. Apart from that no differences to the US lots, i.e. with all the regular bits and pieces of USN birds including fully operable AWG-9 radars, down to the hook and launchbar and all that other stuff people think they wouldn't have. In fact Iranian Tomcats were the first ones to receive the newer more reliable TF-30-414 engines since the Shah paid for the upgrade and the Block-95 serials were the first to receive the at that time new automated slat/flap flight control.

 

All Tomcats I saw were in really good shape including 3-6001 / 160299, the first Tomcat delivered to Iran in early '75 and by now the longest flying Tomcat of the whole fleet of 712. No dents, bumps, rough spots or whatever. The worst I saw had a neatly weathered paint job but the airframes itself looked really good. All in all I would say they do keep the old gals in pretty prestine shape.

 

Just for interested parties:

The stories about Grumman employees sabotaging the fleet apon their flight from the country after the revolution are overblown fairy tales. The entire fleet was spread across the whole country (which is about as huge as central Europe) with units stationed at Mehrabat (Teheran) in the North, Shiraz in the South and Khatamy (today Babaie) airbase (Esfahan) in the middle of the country. In no way would have a sabotage of the whole fleet been possible. Grumman employees at Mehrabat sabotaged some IFF and emitter boxes by (I kid you not) urinating on them causing oxidation and pulling some plugs and they managed to manipulate the targeting system of 16 Phoenix missiles. Until the war broke out in late 1980 it was all fixed, again with Israeli help (remember: The enemy of my enemy is my friend etc.).

Regarding their use of missiles and depletion rates: Well they had 8 years of war to put the Tomcat to test and make use of them. The Iran / Iraq conflict was essentially a test field for the great powers to see how their equipment would fare against each other; Iran with Western equipment and Iraq with mainly Russian and French stuff and the Tomcats just had plenty of chances to wreak havoc among the Iraqi fleet. Accoridng to the IRIAF there were about a 200 air engagements per year on average during the war so plenty of chances to score aerial victories. When mission readiness rates sank due to attrition in the mid 80s just around "half time" of the war, the Iran contra affair re-sustained and even increased about everything for the Tomcat fleet up until the early nineties well after the war had ended. Originally the Shah had ordered 714 Phoenix missiles  of which 276 were delivered when the revolution broke out and deliveries were halted. By 1986 the Phoenix stockpile was essentially depleted and only about 24 F-14s were mission ready with only about 12 or so FMC but the Iran contra affair gave Iran allegedly about 500 AIM-54As plus enough stock to revive most of the fleet. Today the IRIAF cklaims it has about 100 AIM-54As left in useable status with refurbished thermal batteries and fixed propellant boosters plus their derivative of the AIM-23B (M-90) Fakour. Just recently some photos emerged that seem to indicate that Iran also managed to reverse engineer the old AIM-9Ps and also develop an AIM-7 derivative. Contrary to what is generally stated in the West images indicate that there are quite a few units that can still carry the MIM-23 Hawk which seems to still be in use occassionally until the other derivatives are supposed to replace that arsenal.

 

I tried to keep tabs on which serials are still left and think ... well ... hope I have a pretty accurate serial list of what is still there. All in all they should still have 63 airframes available with at least 57 in working order (2 losses before the war, 9 losses during the war (five losses to SAMs, three losses in air combat, one loss due to unsuccessful defection), 2 losses in the nineties and 3 losses out of four known incidents between 2000 and 2022 including the most recent one from June 2022; (one serial slid along the runway in 2008 similar to what happened to a VF-101 bird in 2001 and got refurbished until 2012)). According to the US-DIA the IRIAF tries to maintain about 42 airframes operational at any given time (three squadrons worth plus training machines) with the rest being either in overhaul or mothballed. Apparently they run through a repeating cycle of mothball storage - overhaul / pot. upgrade? at Mehrabat and Esfahan - frontline service - rear service - withdrawal to storage and repeat. As far as I can make out the IRIAF has about an overhaul rate of 1 to 2 machines per year.

 

Here's little me with a "living" Persian Cat:

 

Edited October 24, 2022 by bushande

[exdraken]

thanks Alex for this great sum up and straight setting of records!

 

+500 Aim-54 during the 80ies`wow... that is a lot....

 

I would also understand that the Shah got what he ordered, after all it was this business that kept the Tomcat viable for the USN... as some say! wasn't it at the bink if cancellation/ stop of production back then?

 

regarding the external tanks... I kind of restarted that discussion a qile back... not having seen a tank mounted yet on an IIAF/ IRIAF Tomcat as of yet.....and I also do not fully follow your line of argumentation in this respect... more fuel seems always welcome....if for loitering, range, etc...  maybe they simply did not get enoughof them, or the jets needed some undelivered mods to employ them. could also be software related of course. whatever, not really that important afer all  (by the way, when did the USN Tomcats started using the tanks?)

 

any info on the Mk-84s? did Iran use them on the Cat?

 

thanks for your photos... very much apreciated!

[bushande]

19 hours ago, exdraken said:

thanks Alex for this great sum up and straight setting of records!

 

+500 Aim-54 during the 80ies`wow... that is a lot....

 

I would also understand that the Shah got what he ordered, after all it was this business that kept the Tomcat viable for the USN... as some say! wasn't it at the bink if cancellation/ stop of production back then?

 

regarding the external tanks... I kind of restarted that discussion a qile back... not having seen a tank mounted yet on an IIAF/ IRIAF Tomcat as of yet.....and I also do not fully follow your line of argumentation in this respect... more fuel seems always welcome....if for loitering, range, etc...  maybe they simply did not get enoughof them, or the jets needed some undelivered mods to employ them. could also be software related of course. whatever, not really that important afer all  (by the way, when did the USN Tomcats started using the tanks?)

 

any info on the Mk-84s? did Iran use them on the Cat?

 

thanks for your photos... very much apreciated!

Please excuse my rumbling right in advance but I’m afraid this will be yet again a rather lengthy post. There is just so much about these fascinating old birds as I believe. The edition of the tanks look … and most likely are … just the same as the USN received from ROHR-aviation (sub contractor for Grumman) in the late 70s/ early 80s, i.e. without the winglets but also without the rear caps, hence the slightly rounded bulb end.

 

The issue with the early tanks, to my knowledge, was (along with other issues on other parts such as the canopy and air inlets etc.) in large parts due to major miscommunication and hick ups between Grumman and it’s sub contractor ROHR. During trials with the prototypes it was found that the little winglets at the end of the first batch of tanks caused the tanks upon emergency drop to float in the air just that fraction of a second too long right under the intake trunks to seriously damage the ventral fins and thus were ordered to be omitted. However, due to stated hickups between Grumman and Rohr, production for follow up lots of external tanks (just as one of the many issues that lead to Grummans almost bankruptcy, were it not for the Persian Shah to save them in the last minute) was reduced to the bare minimum up until about 1978. This led to the earliest squadrons equipped with F-14s having to use the old finned tanks despite the unfavorable findings well into 1975. Early USN birds you would find the finned tanks on would be VF-1, -2, -142, -143, -211, -213 along with some rare occurrence in the training and RAG squadrons -101, -124, and the main test unit at the time VX-4. However by about 1974 / early ’75 Rohr managed to produce at least some sets of unfinned but decaped fuel tanks. The Shah / Iran and its MELI bank due to being the major funders of Grumman between 1974 and 1976 (until congress and the Navy found a solution to their dispute and eventual financial commitment to higher prices with new lots after their initial fixed price contracts (which led to Grummans financial problems due to the short super inflation after the oil price shock of ’73)) was given priority in just about everything reg. deliveries for the Tomcat ranging from the newer TF30 versions over newer automated control surface systems down to just about every depot level spare etc.. Anyways due to the shortage caused by the problems with Rohr only few sets of external tanks were available to the Navy just as well as Iran. I was for quite some time in good contact with the weapons training officer of VF-1 during their work ups and first cruise from ’73, ’74-’75 and he told me the squadron just as well as the sister squad. VF-2 each had only three sets of tanks and were ordered to only use them on long range transits. They later even had to share in with other freshly equipped squadrons such as -142 and -213 etc. They had to make use of the old finned tanks longer than anticipated just because the first lots of defined sets went to Iran and rework of the finned tanks was only possible on shore at NADEP level. I do have very few images of early VF-1 and VF-2 Alphas with tanks strapped on but they were definitely present even though 90 percent of the time you would see their birds without them.

 

I confess it is mostly assumption just with about everything regarding the Persian Cats but I would still profoundly guess that despite Iran’s priority in the Grumman delivery schedule they just had to deal with just the same shortage problem and thus I just think, while Iran definitely received external tanks, there were not many sets delivered until relations broke up in ’79. Considering that Iran managed to apparently keep its Tomcat fleet in quite decent shape over the decades and managed to reverse engineer most if not all major components, I do not see any reason why they wouldn’t be able to just reengineer a predeveloped / proven in-service component that is physically available to them. It’s rather a question whether the Iranian airforce has found it an issue critical enough to devote a share of it’s budget to it. Nonetheless Iran indeed has tanks and it is not totally off the charts to put them on the one or other IRIAF F-14. However, I concur, apart from about two or three images in my archive I have not seen Persian Cats using them which I guess has just the same reasons as stated above for the USN, also today. Iran solely uses their Tomcat fleet over home turf for air defense along the Western borders and forward QRA. Iran is plastered with airfields their tanker fleet albeit not huge is still fully available and their net of GIR stations and the Tomcat’s still relatively short spool up time of 7 minutes compared to the long spool up times of Russian types allow for short instances without the necessity to use up flight hours just loitering. Why add the additional drag limiting maneuverability to the plane you want to use for explicit air defense and partly even point defense without any greater need?! The mission set for these birds is to quickly go up, try to fight from the distance, be able to half decently fight it out on short range and make it back alive in case someone would penetrate Iranian borders. No need for any long loitering. I seriously doubt there is a Software problem. Remember this is still late 60s / early 70s tech; the connection between tanks and airframe is purely mechanical. Range is not a problem for the Tomcat even without tanks. That airframe is huge with plenty of internal fuel (just as the Flanker for example) and again, these always have solely been used within the confines of Iranian airspace apart from some very very few and questionable exceptions. I think the lack of any number of images showing Persian cats with tanks is a combination of both stated issues, i.e. the apparently rather short supply, limited funding and will to fill that gap and the perceived limited added value of actually using them. Do they actually ever use them? Would they never use them? Who knows?! I think the truth is as always somewhere in the middle of these extremes.

 

Of course it could also be all naught because these old ladies are so worn down that they can only be used for some empty propaganda flying without the ability to pull any larger number of Gs anymore (although my personal impression standing in front of them and seeing them doing some quite spirited maneuvers leads me to believe otherwise but what do I know?!). In February of this year they pulled out the elusive F-14AM splinter 3-6049 / 160347 with a full 2-2-2 weapons compliment albeit with tanks just placed beside together with the first F-14A deliverred to Iran in early '75 3-6001 / 160299 standing right beside it and still being operational (making it the now longest flying F-14 ever). Still looked awesome!

I for one will build my Persian Cats without tanks but with magnets to flexibly put them on and off just to make the case.

Edited October 25, 2022 by bushande