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Caldercraft / JoTiKa - HMS Victory 1/72 Scale


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1 minute ago, Stratomonkey said:

I'd love to have a go at one of those with the correct number of frames

 

I would say that a scratchbuilt plank on frame ship of the line is the ultimate expression of out hobby. That's what's described in the book I mentioned above. Victory in 1/48 - all of her, inside and out. I believe the model is still on display in one of the London Museums.

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To anyone whom maybe interested.

 

Sadly, no building this weekend as I have a some guests visiting tomorrow and I really should be spending the day tidying up. Even so, I still managed to find myself distracted and my day taken over by ............ "The Ship". 

 

Today, whilst attempting the aforementioned tidying up, I found some books that I'd forgotten all about. I have yet to read them and take in all the information they may have to offer. It would be nice to know if any of you chaps out there taking on the challenge of a wooden built period ship model have these books, if so, did they help you and are there any more books out there that you can recommended?

 

 

 

 

 

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At the moment I have reached an impasse as there are a few decisions at this point that I need to make. This then, here, is me pretty much me thinking out aloud (or in words) so to speak.

 

Decision #1: The lower false deck. This apparently,  requires some planking to be done as areas of it can be seen from the quarterdeck. OK, so I am currently getting my head around "Butt Shifting the deck planks", and looking into either a three butt or four butt shift pattern with the false deck planking on this deck. Am I going to use the supplied 4mm x 1mm Tanganyka strips? or would it be an idea to use a lighter strip, maybe lime or maple and stain or matt varnish the planks oak. Individually coated Im thinking. To do this the planks will have to cut very precisely and smoothed properly and I have designed a cutting jig which is with a colleague from work who has offered to 3D print my design.

 

Decision #2: Glue for the deck planking. what would give me the most controllable method and enough "wriggle room time" (I do like wriggle room time) to place the planks on this deck (My logic dictates and follows that once these planks have been laid then all the deck planks on the ship would have to be laid the same way) - BTW, I am not really concerned about how long it will take as getting it to look proper is more important than getting it done quickly and efficiently. I am considering some choices of glue here but I am going to either use PVA or I have even thought about Pritt Sticks (controversial?) for this, but superglue is definitely not an option ( I have some serious amounts of these Pritt Sticks which I procured for a different project and have used off and on for years and they have one or two things that makes them a great choice. Firstly, these things stick paper, card and should also stick wood like the proverbial to a shovel and I happen to have a few sticks of these hanging (or sticking) around.

 

Decision 3#: Caulking effect, this is going to take some experimentation but I have a crazy idea of laying the planks rather like tiles with a small gap using 0.010"- 0.015" shims and then syringing in the gaps a mixture of watered down PVA coloured dark grey by using black acrylic paint. The glue has to be very thin to flow thought the minuscule size syringe needles I've managed to find. However I am not discounting the pencil method as, to be honest, I'll probably end up doing it that way anyway. I'm not sure about using thread to do this and the method of using black paper or card doesn't really appeal.

 

Decision #4: All the lower masts (Bowsprit, Fore, Main & Mizzen) will be made from oak, I have already discounted using the kit supplied dowel as it is not in great shape, somewhat warped and a bit oval in sections. So for less than £10 shipped from ebay I think. I have bought two 1m length of turned and finished 12.7mm (1/2") oak dowels give or take 1/2mm (0.020") on the tolerance of the diameter. Placing and getting the mast positions correct at this point seems a good thing to do whilst considering other jobs that need doing at this stage. As I have access to the main keel still and can place, if I need to, formers or supports to have these lower parts of the masts placed straight from the front view and the correct rake angle from the side view. A jig to achieve this may even be necessary but we will see.

 

Also this is the time to start thinking about the guns. Yes, the 12, 24 and 32 pounder brutes that this ship was kitted out with. But I have already had thoughts about the guns and there will a more in depth build log of the guns as I have something very special in mind. Yes folks! this one ends in a cliffhanger!

 

Again I offer you my total respect and admiration if you followed this one to this point.

 

Cheers

 

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34 minutes ago, Stratomonkey said:

Decision #2: Glue

For my paper/card ship I bought some of this.

It is a sort of PVA super glue, dries quickly but slow enough to allow a bit of "wriggle room" it also dries very clear.

Might be worth your consideration.

Jon

p?i=f30b0253deff0bdce634f7bdbf5fc6c9

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4 hours ago, Stratomonkey said:

Today, whilst attempting the aforementioned tidying up, I found some books that I'd forgotten all about. I have yet to read them and take in all the information they may have to offer. It would be nice to know if any of you chaps out there taking on the challenge of a wooden built period ship model have these books, if so, did they help you and are there any more books out there that you can recommended?

 

I reviewed all of those books and a few more on my Beagle build page 9

 

4 hours ago, Stratomonkey said:

Decision 3#: Caulking effect, this is going to take some experimentation but I have a crazy idea of laying the planks rather like tiles with a small gap using 0.010"- 0.015" shims and then syringing in the gaps a mixture of watered down PVA coloured dark grey by using black acrylic paint. The glue has to be very thin to flow thought the minuscule size syringe needles I've managed to find.

 

I think that's a bad idea as if the paint is thin enough to go through a syringe it is thin enough to wick into the fibres of the planks and anything nearby. Also, black id too black. Pitch goes grey very quickly. Again I refer you to some of my daft experiments on the Beagle and recommend the pencil method as used by modellers for years and too often ignored by experimenting newbs like you and I. 😆

 

4 hours ago, Stratomonkey said:

Decision #4: All the lower masts (Bowsprit, Fore, Main & Mizzen) will be made from oak, I have already discounted using the kit supplied dowel as it is not in great shape, somewhat warped and a bit oval in sections. So for less than £10 shipped from ebay I think. I have bought two 1m length of turned and finished 12.7mm (1/2") oak dowels give or take 1/2mm (0.020") on the tolerance of the diameter.

 

Oak isn't often used on model ships because of the coarseness of the grain but you will be painting them so that's not a problem if you seal them well.

 

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1 hour ago, Bertie McBoatface said:

 

I reviewed all of those books and a few more on my Beagle build page 9

 

 

I think that's a bad idea as if the paint is thin enough to go through a syringe it is thin enough to wick into the fibres of the planks and anything nearby. Also, black id too black. Pitch goes grey very quickly. Again I refer you to some of my daft experiments on the Beagle and recommend the pencil method as used by modellers for years and too often ignored by experimenting newbs like you and I. 😆

 

 

Oak isn't often used on model ships because of the coarseness of the grain but you will be painting them so that's not a problem if you seal them well.

 

Thanks, I'll have a look at that, Ive been through and looked at your Beagle build a few days ago, it is impressive btw. I think I missed and skipped by the book reviews but I will go back and have a read. You're right about the deck planking. It's a bad idea but like you say, I'm a relative newbie to this and I think that gives us all, as newbies, a right to faff and experiment around without the confines of the . I've heard about another method which is using a PVA and graphite mix. My thoughts are to seal each individual plank once cut so the chance of wicking is minimised. I think that my experiments will give me the answers to how it will be done. For my own peace of mind, I need to run some experiments and see what works for me and what doesn't work for me. I wasn't thinking black, I know its grey and so I was thinking that a 50/50 PVA/Water mix with enough black paint to make it dark grey, not too dark, which is again, something that will take experimentation and some trial and error.

 

Yes, Oak grain is way out of scale for what I'm using it for but I know oak is a pretty stable and solid wood once seasoned. I considered other woods but like you say, if it's sealed properly and undercoated properly then it shouldn't matter. I was thinking about getting a 9/10mm diameter oak dowel and planking it with a more suitably grained strip, then rounding it off down to size. 

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7 minutes ago, Bertie McBoatface said:

 

Always the best way!

And the best way so far, from the experiment I did last night was gluing a few cut planks to some cardboard I had handy with very little PVA but spread thinly. Stick 'em down. then soak and spread thin CA glue into the planks, let it dry and then emery them down with fine-ish emery , wipe over with a damp cloth, repeat the CA glue again, let dry and then rub down with really fine emery. Some of these I penciled and some I haven't.

 

 

 

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Hi Noel,

I've been reading through and will be following this.  I believe you can get that Rocket glue at Addlestone Models (but ring to check first!) The cut planks look good, If only you had a jig to help you . . . . . . . . I have something for you, I'll drop it down tomorrow.

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51 minutes ago, neil_kirby said:

Hi Noel,

I've been reading through and will be following this.  I believe you can get that Rocket glue at Addlestone Models (but ring to check first!) The cut planks look good, If only you had a jig to help you . . . . . . . . I have something for you, I'll drop it down tomorrow.

Hi Neil,

 

Nice surprise to see your message. Thanks for doing that , much appreciated mate. The planks look ok, I wouldn't say they look great but maybe, like you say, if I had a jig :yahoo:.Thanks for dropping by and getting through all the stuff I've written and I haven't even got started properly yet. I didn't realise Addlestone Models was still going! They've been there for decades! I need to check them out soon.I remember that shop being open on Sundays many years ago to help keep the model aircraft flyers going in the event of a mishap or crash, and also remembering that there wasnt anything I wasn't able to get from there.I have a few busy weekends coming up and its going to be kind of quiet for a time but I know Ill see you out and about in that place we call "ARRRRRGH!".

 

Cheers for now

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Every checked out tips and tricks and builds of galleons by Harry houdini on you tube?  Heres one on deck planking, he does rigging, masts, hull planking, everything to do with building Galleons, from roman ships to the late 19th century

 

 

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18 minutes ago, rayprit said:

Every checked out tips and tricks and builds of galleons by Harry houdini on you tube?  Heres one on deck planking, he does rigging, masts, hull planking, everything to do with building Galleons, from roman ships to the late 19th century

 

 

No I haven't, but I shall certainly go and have a look, thanks for the suggestion.

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While I gather the courage to begin fairing the hull bulkheads, still not quite sure if I want use wood fillets on the bow and stern to give the planking some purchase, I thought I would share some images of my very own deck planking experiments.

A very helpful colleague at work 3D printed a design I drew up for a deck plank jig which enables me to be able to cut planks of 1.5mm thickness & 4 - 5mm in width. I understand the the scale width for the decking is 4mm or rather the supplied Tanganyka strips are 4mm and this is what is called for in the instruction library somewhere. So, the aim of this jig is to be able to cut any of the three lengths and  to get each plank to fit in the 4mm width recess as a snug fit. I gave myself the option to cut 80, 85 or 90mm lengths but really I have settled at 85mm

 

 

 

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The jig is designed to be used with my chopper, which, to be honest isn't great but it does cut cleanly at right angles and with a super satisfying "snap!" as I watch the off cut shoot off into orbit! 

 

The mounting of this jig is rather questionable so I have some M3 x 30 nuts and bolts with which I'll use to mount the jig more securely. In built to this will  obviously have to be some "wriggle room" and with some adjustment built in as from the photo its obvious to see that the jig is somewhat wider than the blade. But right now it works fine as is for cutting 85mm lengths

 

 

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On the way home from work this evening I stopped my local DIY supplies shop, a truly fantastic little "get anything in there" kind of shop. I bought a tin of Rustin's light oak satin acrylic varnish (outdoor varnish apparently) and coated some ready cut lime planks.

 

Picture bottom varnished wood strip, above, unvarnished wood strip.  There is a note to self at this point too...... When using a different colour paint or varnish please do remember to make sure the brushes are clean. The brush I used had the dregs of the last painting job I did with it which was, of course black! so there is some staining of black paint on those planks too but given a good rubbing down and another coat they shouldn't look too bad. I have reached a decision on Caulking yet but if the technique of sticking the underside of the planks to masking tape and then varnishing them works then I may not need it.

 

 

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That's it for now, not much else going on otherwise

 

Thanks & take care

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5 hours ago, Bertie McBoatface said:

The planks at the bottom of the last photo are very dark. I'd have thought the unstained ones above would be nearer the shade of holystoned oak. 

 

Nice jig!

Yes, those planks are quite dark, darker than I expected them to be for a light oak varnish but that was my first attempt. Over the next few days I intend to try out various thinned out mixtures once I find some clear acrylic satin varnish. I think the right mix would be somewhere between 10 - 25% light oak and 75 - 90% clear. I have plenty of IPA alcohol and may use that as a thinner if I need to. All of this, bearing in mind is just for the lowest false deck. Im not too sure what shade or colour the other upper decks are going to be yet. More decisions to make I guess

 

Thanks, yes, the jig is rather handy and works great.

 

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29 minutes ago, dnl42 said:

Ooh, now this is a fine subject and kit!:clap2:

 

You also have an excellent selection of references. Particularly good as you DO NOT have zu Mondfeld! :blink:

Thanks, yes it is a fine kit, rather large but manageable I think but I am intent on doing it a long term project, maybe two or so years.

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2 hours ago, Stratomonkey said:

All of this, bearing in mind is just for the lowest false deck. Im not too sure what shade or colour the other upper decks are going to be yet. More decisions to make I guess

 

Yes, interesting choices too. I'd be torn between doing the lower deck planking darker than 'reality', to suggest the absence of light down there on the original ship and doing it lighter because it may be hidden within the dark depths of the model.

 

Maybe you could light the thing up inside with a few LED lanthorns. That's something I have been thinking about lately after seeing @Kevin Aris's Britannic lit up so well.

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8 hours ago, Bertie McBoatface said:

 

Yes, interesting choices too. I'd be torn between doing the lower deck planking darker than 'reality', to suggest the absence of light down there on the original ship and doing it lighter because it may be hidden within the dark depths of the model.

 

Maybe you could light the thing up inside with a few LED lanthorns. That's something I have been thinking about lately after seeing @Kevin Aris's Britannic lit up so well.

Hmmm, yes, some interesting ideas there, @Bertie. I didn't quite think of it like that but looking through some photo's today of the different deck levels the lower decks do seem to be darker in shade, that maybe the lower light levels but they certainly wouldn't get the levels of UV light that the exposed quarter and poop deck would, so they do tend to show a lighter but greyish shade. It looks a bit like a patio decking that's not been treated or oiled for a while and has bleached in the sun which of course would happen I guess. However I don't really like that effect but that's another thing to experiment with at a later time.

 

LED's eh? again that is interesting but LED's, I never considered it. If I did something like that then I'd have make that decision now and start making the lanterns and planning the routings of the wires because it would look quite nice if lanterns lit up the gun deck through the gun ports as I have a few sets of 1/72 scale gun crews. Power supply and final mounting plinth and studs would also have to be decided upon sooner rather than later. I wouldnt use the LED's that come in strip form as it would bug me that they were there. There would have to be LED's in lanterns hanging by the gun ports as in the photos I have seen. I have the photo etch lanterns that come with the kit and at 1/72 scale they are not big so Im not sure if I want to do that or not.

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12 minutes ago, Stratomonkey said:

LED's in lanterns

 

You'd need a very yellow light as these ship were lit by candles in lanthorns which were made from a hollowed out cow's horn where we would expect the glass to be.They were practically unbreakable and the candle would go out safely if dropped. They were mortally afraid of fire on their wooden ships with all that tar and gunpowder!

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54 minutes ago, Bertie McBoatface said:

 

You'd need a very yellow light as these ship were lit by candles in lanthorns which were made from a hollowed out cow's horn where we would expect the glass to be.They were practically unbreakable and the candle would go out safely if dropped. They were mortally afraid of fire on their wooden ships with all that tar and gunpowder!

 

I imagine they would be a bit cautious about a fire on board. I'm afraid that LED's are beyond my current level of capability and won't happening on this ship. Maybe they are for another project which I am already thinking about.

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4 minutes ago, Stratomonkey said:

 

I imagine they would be a bit cautious about a fire on board. I'm afraid that LED's are beyond my current level of capability and won't happening on this ship. Maybe they are for another project which I am already thinking about.

 

That's about where I am with the idea. Maybe the next one or the one after that.

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Staining the false deck planks. I tried various methods but have come across a way of staining that I think works really well.

 

I bought a small tin of Light Oak Satin Finish varnish. I also bought a tin of Danish Oil, why I did so was because it seemed like a good idea at the time. Neither of these gave me the colours, shades and overall tones of the deck that I wanted. As the varnish is acrylic I could thin it out but as I was contemplating this a weird thing happened. More later on down the page.

 

In the photos there are three different finished planks. Running down the centre is the kit supplied Tanganyka strip ( I thank that's what it is) this is far too reddish and too mahogany like for my taste so I have decided not to use this for the decking. Either side of the centre planks are the lime/basswood strips I acquired.

 

Before I go on. I calculated that I would need 47 planks at the widest part of this false deck. So I thought I would lay it out on some upturned masking tape to see. My king plank obviously in the centre running the entire length of this deck with 23 planks placed either side of it. Along the length of this deck, were I to plank the entire length of it would be 9 planks at 85mm in length. All told that would be 423 planks just for this deck alone! The gun deck would be in the same region, then the Quarter deck and Poop, not to mention the forecastle. so we are looking at 1,000plus planks for this ship! So far I've cut 54 + the 42 in these photos . The jig is holding up well too 😀

 

 

 

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So the light oak proved to be too dark for my taste too, the supplied Tanganyika too red. So for some reason I reached for the instant coffee and used that to stain the wood instead. Just let it cool and then liberally apply with a brush and let it soak in and leave to dry. Apply a second coat if its not dark enough. The lighter planks in the photo are the coffee stained ones. It looks like once I have refined my recipe then I will use this as a stain. 

 

 

Cheers

 

 

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5 hours ago, Bertie McBoatface said:

Do you have to plank the entire deck? Can you get away with just doing the area under the hatches and companions?

 

 

True, I don't have to do the entire deck. I have that thing called "I know most of it won't be seen but I know it's there" syndrome and besides where better to practice the fine art of deck planking. If it turns out crap then it doesn't really matter too much and its first ever attempt at doing this so I thought I would make a meal of it! lol

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