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All the Wildcat/Martlet questions you wanted to ask


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Well, there's two things I've learned this morning.

 

1. stick with my 'it's about right' colour approach!

2. My Hue Test score was zero (perfect score) so my 'it's about right' colour approach is probably OK on a small model!

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Sorry to kick the wasps nest but I need some colour clarification (I've read through this thread and I must confess, I'm a bit bewildered).  Also, I'm sure I've asked one of these questions before but in spite of carrying out a search, I can't find the thread.

 

I've got the Euro Decals sheet for FAA Martlets/Wildcats which includes some options for Wildcat VI's of 853 NAS on HMS Queen c1945.  My questions are:

 

1.  Euro Decals state these aircraft were painted in Extra Dark Sea Grey/Dark Slate Grey/Sky Type "S".  Is this the case or were they painted in US equivalent colours?  I'd read many times that Vought used ANA shades which were close to UK shades on their Corsairs but that Grumman (and potentially Eastern), were a bit more fastidious in their colour matching.  Can anyone confirm this please?

 

2.  Euro Decals show the codes in yellow, also, they appear to be in a smaller font than expected.  I've always thought yellow codes were used by 2nd line (e.g. 7xx numbered) Sqns and that operational Sqns used red or white codes.  Measuring the decals they're 5mm in 1/72nd which equates to a full scale height of jut over 14" which seems a bit off to me.  Can anyone comment on the correctness of the codes.

 

Googling Gumman Wildcat VI HMS Queen 1945 doesn't really help.

 

One thing I've got from this thread is that I need to remove the underwing oil coolers from a MkVI (FM-2 equivalent).

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Wez

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41 minutes ago, Wez said:

1.  Euro Decals state these aircraft were painted in Extra Dark Sea Grey/Dark Slate Grey/Sky Type "S".  Is this the case or were they painted in US equivalent colours?  I'd read many times that Vought used ANA shades which were close to UK shades on their Corsairs but that Grumman (and potentially Eastern), were a bit more fastidious in their colour matching.  Can anyone confirm this please?

 

I believe Eastern (who AFAIK built all FM-2s and consequently the VIs) used ANA substitute colours. Passing on second hand info though. Sources:

http://web.archive.org/web/20200811132653/http://www.theworldwars.net/resources/resource.php?r=camo_rnfaa#lendlease

 

 

HTH

Andy

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4 hours ago, Wez said:

1.  Euro Decals state these aircraft were painted in Extra Dark Sea Grey/Dark Slate Grey/Sky Type "S".  Is this the case or were they painted in US equivalent colours?  I'd read many times that Vought used ANA shades which were close to UK shades on their Corsairs but that Grumman (and potentially Eastern), were a bit more fastidious in their colour matching.  Can anyone confirm this please?

Eastern used US Equivalent colours as well, Grumman used US colors close MAP standards.

They were  ANA 613 Olive Drab, ANA 603 Sea Gray and ANA 610 Sky, NOT ANA 602 Light Gray. as so often stated. 

Why else was there an ANA 610 Sky?   It is for Lend Lease use, it was not used by the USAAF/USN/USMC AFAIK.  

Color chips from the Elliot USN/USMC Colors Vol.2   ANA 610 Sky is slightly lighter and greyer than MAP Sky BTW.

 

PTECTPK.jpg

For those who 'enjoyed' the color bunfight, note that ANA 606 and ANA 607 are different on the chips scan as well.

4 hours ago, Wez said:

 

2.  Euro Decals show the codes in yellow, also, they appear to be in a smaller font than expected.  I've always thought yellow codes were used by 2nd line (e.g. 7xx numbered) Sqns and that operational Sqns used red or white codes.  Measuring the decals they're 5mm in 1/72nd which equates to a full scale height of jut over 14" which seems a bit off to me.  Can anyone comment on the correctness of the codes.

 

I think they are wrong.  I have the sheet, and it does not look well  researched.   Ah, Looking up the sheet it's another done by the Xtradecal and Model Alliance designer / "researcher" Jon Freeman.   I knew something set my alarm bells ringing when I was looking at my sheet.   

 

 The person l'd ask is @iang   but other FAA buffs maybe able chip in, @Grey Beema @Seahawk 

 

I think I have seen pics of Wildcats from HMS Queen... but where! 

 

 

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On 12/13/2022 at 3:36 PM, Troy Smith said:

they are 3 different colours (ANA 606/607/623)

I  can confirm that, I used chips from said book - they were very different and when I do the paint matching math, they result with different pigments combinations.

 

In other words: difference between them is larger than their gloss perception only. I use spectrophotometer in SCI mode (more info: https://sensing.konicaminolta.us/us/blog/specular-component-included-sci-vs-specular-component-excluded-sce/) which by itself reduces almost all of the effect of gloss on color measurements.

 

Also, Sky 610 and other colors in this this scheme are very different than their GB equivalent. Interestingly, I found a really great ANA610 match in Hataka paints, called RAF Sky...

 

 

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1 hour ago, Troy Smith said:

I think I have seen pics of Wildcats from HMS Queen... but where! 

 

I only have a low res photo: white, Sky, yellow codes? Yellow seems the most unlikely to me. I'm not sure which QY the photo shows JV740 or JV720? The former was lost in Feb 1945.

 

Wildcats

 

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2 hours ago, Chuck1945 said:

If it is a Wildcat VI (FM-2), wouldn’t they be Lend-Lease and delivered in US colors, overall GSB, with any repaint being done by British mod centers presumably using MAP colors?

 

1 hour ago, PhantomBigStu said:

Not to thread derail but do have a relevant hijack, my decal sheet for an early FAA Birdcage corsair states ANA602, would the point its actually 610 apply @Troy Smith

Yes, I'd go with ANA 610,  Vallejo pastel green is decent for it.    I suspect that ANA602 is a substitute for Medium Sea Grey, eg P-51 DFS.

1024px-Corsair_Mk1_Quonset_Point_1943.jp

2 hours ago, Chuck1945 said:

If it is a Wildcat VI (FM-2), wouldn’t they be Lend-Lease and delivered in US colors, overall GSB, with any repaint being done by British mod centers presumably using MAP colors?

The British finally accepted aircraft finished in GSB,  and late deliveries of  Corsair, Hellcats, Wildcats and Avengers were used in overall GSB. 

I have never heard of a GSB plane being repainted British colours, and Eastern were building Avenger II's in substitute colors, FM-1's /Wildcat V were seen in substitute colors, so TSS finished Wildcat VI /FM-2 should be substitute colors. 

 

1 hour ago, Casey said:

I  can confirm that, I used chips from said book - they were very different and when I do the paint matching math, they result with different pigments combinations.

 

In other words: difference between them is larger than their gloss perception only. I use spectrophotometer in SCI mode (more info: https://sensing.konicaminolta.us/us/blog/specular-component-included-sci-vs-specular-component-excluded-sce/) which by itself reduces almost all of the effect of gloss on color measurements.

 

Also, Sky 610 and other colors in this this scheme are very different than their GB equivalent. Interestingly, I found a really great ANA610 match in Hataka paints, called RAF Sky...

 

 

Thanks.   I got some spray out of some of the Hataka set, i was not impressed.   I missed this thread.  

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16 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

Eastern used US Equivalent colours as well, Grumman used US colors close MAP standards.

They were  ANA 613 Olive Drab, ANA 603 Sea Gray and ANA 610 Sky, NOT ANA 602 Light Gray. as so often stated. 

Why else was there an ANA 610 Sky?   It is for Lend Lease use, it was not used by the USAAF/USN/USMC AFAIK.  

Color chips from the Elliot USN/USMC Colors Vol.2   ANA 610 Sky is slightly lighter and greyer than MAP Sky BTW.

 

PTECTPK.jpg

For those who 'enjoyed' the color bunfight, note that ANA 606 and ANA 607 are different on the chips scan as well.

I think they are wrong.  I have the sheet, and it does not look well  researched.   Ah, Looking up the sheet it's another done by the Xtradecal and Model Alliance designer / "researcher" Jon Freeman.   I knew something set my alarm bells ringing when I was looking at my sheet.   

 

 The person l'd ask is @iang   but other FAA buffs maybe able chip in, @Grey Beema @Seahawk 

 

I think I have seen pics of Wildcats from HMS Queen... but where! 

 

 

 

I am it sure I can be a lot of use here as I have not really studied the Wildcat VI but, I have had a look into the Wildcat V as I am planning to build the MkV that SLt John Cotching scored his final victory in (Cotching was the top scoring Martlet /Wildcat pilot in the RN).  

 

As you say Mk Vs and VIs were built by Eastern.  My understanding is that US equivalent paint was used, apart from the first few MkVs which were Grumman built and were thus in MAP colours.  The Wildcat V I’m building is one of these first few and will be in MAP colours.

 

BTW I cannot find a picture of John Cotching - if anyone has one - and chance I can get a copy..

 

 

 

Edited by Grey Beema
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Thanks to all that replied, from this I've surmised that FAA FM-2s would be painted in equivalent colours, not MAP matched colours and that the Euro Decals codes are unlikely to be yellow (I agree with @iang here, I think white is more likely).

 

Also, I never appreciated there was a difference between Semi-Gloss Sea Blue and Gloss Sea Blue, does this mean that Tamiya AS-8 Navy Blue (US Navy), is not a good equivalent?

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4 hours ago, Wez said:

does this mean that Tamiya AS-8 Navy Blue (US Navy), is not a good equivalent?

I guess they've fallen in the same trap as many before..
From their own product page (the tricky bit bold):
 

Quote

★Perfect for recreating the navy blue color seen on American carrier aircraft from late WWII through the 1950s. ★Contents: 10ml

 

Which we now know is not correct since GSB was reformulated.

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4 hours ago, Wez said:

Also, I never appreciated there was a difference between Semi-Gloss Sea Blue and Gloss Sea Blue,

To clarify, there are four USN Navy Sea Blues,  the wartime ones, ANA606 and ANA 607 from the "tri" color scheme, ANA 623 from 1944-47, and the replacement ANA 623 which AFAIK then becomes FS15042 when FS595 was introduced. 

see here  for more detail.

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235049797-us-navy-sea-blues/#elControls_3249838_menu

The only paint company that actually matches all 4 are Colourcoats.

 

4 hours ago, Wez said:

does this mean that Tamiya AS-8 Navy Blue (US Navy), is not a good equivalent?

I don't have an AS-8.  I have two jars of Tamiya XF-17, one an old 23 ML jar is a deep green blue, the other, bought this year, is much darker and bluer, like a midnight blue.

Neither are 'match' for any USN Sea Blue,  though the 23ml is nearer to the FS15042 standard. 

 

Which is a right pain as if Tamiya paints are not batch consistent, it means quoted mixes for their colours worthless.

Annoying as I made a good visual match with a 50/50 mix the old XF-17 and X-16 Purple (yes, that bizarre Tamiya gloss purple)

I only tried that as I read a @Mike Starmer Humbrol mix that was IIRC 4 part Humbrol Sea Blue to 1 part Humbrol purple, and had a jar of the X-16 I bought cheap.

 

wartime ANA 623 Gloss Sea Blue was memorably described by @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies  as "a deep smoky blue" or if you like a purple-blue dark grey.

 

FS15042 is more like a bluish bottle green, which is what most model paints US Navy Sea Blues aspire too.  

 

You need to see the chips in daylight too appreciate the subtle nature of the colors,  and to have good color vision as well.   

I only have the Elliot book and FS 595 deck by chance lucky finds. 

 

At some point if we are lucky @Casey  may do an assessment of various model paint and possible mixes. 

22 minutes ago, alt-92 said:

I guess they've fallen in the same trap as many before.

This information is a bit buried,  it being in a long OOP book, and some threads on modelling sites... 

4 hours ago, Grey Beema said:

My understanding is that US equivalent paint was used, apart from the first few MkVs which were Grumman built and were thus in MAP colours.

Which maybe more in keeping with the thread, so what was a Grumman Wildcat V in is US navy terminology?   AFAIK all Wildcat V and VI were Eastern built,  and that the FAA only used different marks for different factories.

EG 

Avenger I = Grumman built, regardless of US subtype

Avenger II = Eastern Built, regardless of US subtype

Corsair I and II = Vought F4U-1

Corsair III = Brewster F3A-1,

Corsair IV = Goodyear FG-1

 

 

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Me again, have started that Corsair. 4 versions of Sea Blue....thats a lot to wrap ones head around, also means I've done it wrong, painted an avenger where Non-Spec was specified and a Tigercat with the same Vallejo 898 Dark Sea Blue......is 898 close to any of the sea blues? Starting to get tempted to get another corsair to go with my which will be all over sea blue.....

Edited by PhantomBigStu
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2 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

To clarify, there are four USN Navy Sea Blues,  the wartime ones, ANA606 and ANA 607 from the "tri" color scheme, ANA 623 from 1944-47, and the replacement ANA 623 which AFAIK then becomes FS15042 when FS595 was introduced. 

see here  for more detail.

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235049797-us-navy-sea-blues/#elControls_3249838_menu

The only paint company that actually matches all 4 are Colourcoats.

 

I don't have an AS-8.  I have two jars of Tamiya XF-17, one an old 23 ML jar is a deep green blue, the other, bought this year, is much darker and bluer, like a midnight blue.

Neither are 'match' for any USN Sea Blue,  though the 23ml is nearer to the FS15042 standard. 

 

Which is a right pain as if Tamiya paints are not batch consistent, it means quoted mixes for their colours worthless.

Annoying as I made a good visual match with a 50/50 mix the old XF-17 and X-16 Purple (yes, that bizarre Tamiya gloss purple)

I only tried that as I read a @Mike Starmer Humbrol mix that was IIRC 4 part Humbrol Sea Blue to 1 part Humbrol purple, and had a jar of the X-16 I bought cheap.

 

wartime ANA 623 Gloss Sea Blue was memorably described by @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies  as "a deep smoky blue" or if you like a purple-blue dark grey.

 

FS15042 is more like a bluish bottle green, which is what most model paints US Navy Sea Blues aspire too.  

 

You need to see the chips in daylight too appreciate the subtle nature of the colors,  and to have good color vision as well.   

I only have the Elliot book and FS 595 deck by chance lucky finds. 

 

At some point if we are lucky @Casey  may do an assessment of various model paint and possible mixes. 

This information is a bit buried,  it being in a long OOP book, and some threads on modelling sites... 

Which maybe more in keeping with the thread, so what was a Grumman Wildcat V in is US navy terminology?   AFAIK all Wildcat V and VI were Eastern built,  and that the FAA only used different marks for different factories.

EG 

Avenger I = Grumman built, regardless of US subtype

Avenger II = Eastern Built, regardless of US subtype

Corsair I and II = Vought F4U-1

Corsair III = Brewster F3A-1,

Corsair IV = Goodyear FG-1

 

 

 

If I understand correctly a Wildcat V is an FM1 equivalent, Wildcat VI is an FM2 equivalent, though I could e wrong.

 

 

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@Wezseems to have got his answers from @Troy Smith, @iang and @Grey Beema.  Just to pick up on a few points,

- for the record it was Grumman who stuck to paint shades very close to British MAP  shades for Temperate Sea Scheme right until going over to Glossy Sea Blue: it was everybody else who used the Equivalents.

- I agree with @iang (who’d dare differ?) that the use of Yellow for codes of a frontline unit would be most unusual but something tells me it may be correct for Queen’s Avengers and Wildcats.  But until I can come up with some actual evidence to back that up, you’re probably best off disregarding that thought.

- I too have the Eurodecals sheet and agree that the codes look undersized compared with photographic evidence,  notably the photo @iang posted.  For that reason I chucked the sheets in the back of a drawer soon after buying and haven’t looked at them since.  I think the problem is that Eurodecals printed the entire sheet at a scale smaller than 1/72 as the roundels look a bit small too: the underwing ones should be 32” in real life and the fuselage ones 36” (can’t recall offhand the upper wing diameter but will edit it in later).  36” is 12.7mm or 1/2” in 1/72 so you can easily check.  Pity because they are beautifully printed.

 

Hope this helps.

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1 hour ago, Grey Beema said:

 

If I understand correctly a Wildcat V is an FM1 equivalent, Wildcat VI is an FM2 equivalent, though I could e wrong.

Correct.  My point was regarding this

9 hours ago, Grey Beema said:

apart from the first few MkVs which were Grumman built

If they were Grumman built, they were by definition not FM-1's,  they would be something like an F4F-5,  A quick recap for those confused, USN designation have a certain "logic"

F=Fighter, 4 = number of that type made by the company, F= Grumman, -5, the subtype.    the first type built by a company did need the model number just to confuse us, which is why a  we have FM-1 and FG-1, not F1M-1, and F1G-1....  

 

the point being the British did not usually  distinguish between US subtypes, but did for ones built by different factories, which is why I mentioned the Avenger and Corsair designations.  

I'll have a look at @Dana Bell Wildcat monograph later,  but what all the above is saying is were ay Wildcat V's built by Grumman? 

 

3 hours ago, PhantomBigStu said:

is 898 close to any of the sea blues?

I have no idea.    I personally suspect vallejo employ a colour blind baboon to pick out post of paint and labels at random....

OK, they are not that bad but they are not good at their paint actually being what they state it is...

Perhaps @Casey has a pot of 898? 

val898z__77321.1648658669.jpg?c=1

 

As I hope we have established, FS35042 is NOT the same as ANA607.   

 

 

32 minutes ago, Seahawk said:

for the record it was Grumman who stuck to paint shades very close to British MAP  shades for Temperate Sea Scheme right until going over to Glossy Sea Blue: it was everybody else who used the Equivalents.

AFAIK this is because Grumman were building planes for the British pre land lease, so were painted in colours specified by MAP,   I presume once lend lease started they carried on using these as they had them in stock and they were known by their paint supplier.

The oddity in this for me is ANA 610 Sky, which AFAIK does not have a USAAF/USN  use?

 

I either need to pull out @Dana Bell books or have a quiet lie down in darkened room....   

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Me again.

  • The diameter of the upper surface roundel for the Martlet/Wildcat was 54", which handily converts to 3/4" in 1/72.
  • I have an A4 photocopy of Yeovilton Museum original photo Wildcat 106 depicting JV235 Q-W (starboard side close-up) after a barrier accident on HMS Queen on 20/3/45, pilot Sub Lieutenant BH Beeston.  At that large size there is a clear tonal contrast between the white (and red) of the roundel and the colour of the code letters.  The codes appear to me to be in a tone close to, or the same as, the Yellow outer ring of the roundel.  For that reason I discard White, even a thinly painted White, as a possibility, which leaves Sky or Yellow.  Given the difficulty of finding transfers for Yellow codes of any size anywhere, you may choose to go with Sky!
  • My notes say that, although the codes in Eurodecal &2102 are too small, those on Techmod sheet 72026A are better.  Be warned, this would be one of Techmod's earlier sheet which are not especially user friendly
  • I would like to know where the Yellow code story arose.  Contrary to my expectations, there is no illustration of an 853 Wildcat in the line drawings Mike Keep provided at the back of Ray Sturtivant's first edition of FAA Squadrons, so no corroboration there (there is a drawing of an 853 Avenger (JZ472 Q-A), which states Red codes.  I wonder if someone got it direct from Jimmy Beeston himself (they're his photos)?
  • And a purely gratuitous piece of information Q-W was named Wanda (name below the cowling badge, which was personal to the aircraft/pilot (FAA photo Wildcat 108).  The FAA collection also has close-up photos of the cowling badges for other aircraft including Q-U and Q-Y. I don't have photocopies.

 

HTH

Edited by Seahawk
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21 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

Perhaps @Casey has a pot of 898? 

No but I have 71.295 which I suspect is same just for airbrush

 

model-air-vallejo-usn-sea-blue-71295.jpg

 

You can see whole review here:

 

Generally: It is closer to FS35042 and far away from ANA607, which is different. See spectrophotometer results from post above.

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4 hours ago, Grey Beema said:

 

If I understand correctly a Wildcat V is an FM1 equivalent, Wildcat VI is an FM2 equivalent, though I could e wrong.

 

 

That is correct. The Mk V was a block of General Motors FM-1 production diverted to the UK via Lend-Lease. Same for the Mk VI and the FM-2.

 

There was no direct UK equivalent of the US Navy's Grummman-built F4F-4 (while the Mk IV was similar - and designated "F4F-4B" for USN bookkeeping purposes - it was a different aircraft forward of the firewall, with a Wright Cyclone engine, not the F4F-4's Pratt & Wnitney Twin Wasp).

 

Whilst I appreciate the continued enthusiasm for one of my favorite aircraft...this thread seems to be looping back to basic stuff already covered herein, or via the many good links included (such as this one):

 

http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/wildcatfaaba_1.htm

Edited by MDriskill
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1 hour ago, Troy Smith said:

I have no idea.    I personally suspect vallejo employ a colour blind baboon to pick out post of paint and labels at random....

OK, they are not that bad but they are not good at their paint actually being what they state it is...

 

Succinctly put.

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3 hours ago, Seahawk said:

The diameter of the upper surface roundel for the Martlet/Wildcat was 54", which handily converts to 3/4" in 1/72.

@Seahawk According to the finishing instructions for G-36B (Martlet II) and F4F-4B (Martlet IV) in the Grumman archives, the wing roundels, both upper and lower, were 40 inches in diameter. It would be difficult to fit a 54-inch diameter roundel on the wings in the position specified (centred on the middle of the aileron) since the larger 50-inch diameter stars contemporaneously applied to US Navy F4F-4 aircraft (centred just outboard of the inboard end of the aileron) could barely fit in that further inboard position.

 

Maurice

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