Savoia Marchetti S.65 - reference?

[SprueMan]

Hello!

 

I am trying to find some good any reference regarding the Savoia Marchetti S.65 of the Schneider Trophy fame.

But so far, no luck. There are the same general photos circulating the intertubes, but sadly not enough.

I would love some half-detail shots of the general fuselage area in particular.

 

Anyone know of anything?

[Malc2]

Sadly no, and believe me I have looked!

There is the Aerotech 1/32 kit, so it may be worth asking John Simonds of Marsh Models (Aerotech) if he has any more info?

The other person you could approach is Ralph Pegram whos recent book  'Schneider Trophy Seaplanes and Flying Boats' has mention of the S65 but no more pictures than you see on Google.

You could also try contacting The Italian Air Force Museum (Museo Storico dell' Aeronautica Militare Italiana) at Vigna di Valle, Rome to ask if they have any more information? They have quite a few of the Italian Schneider planes on display.

 

If you do find anything please let me know!!!

 

Malc.

Edited September 17, 2022 by Malc2

[CarLos]

Ralph Pegram's book is a must have to anyone interested in the Schneider Trophy theme.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1781551790

 

It includes history, descriptions and scale drawings of all the aircraft entered in every race - and of some non-flying projects too. Sorry, not the detail photos you are looking for. May be someone with a collection of Aerofan magazine...?

 

 

Carlos

[SprueMan]

Thank you very much
I would have preferred to find information accessible, rather than asking authors and museums.

I have the Ralph Pegram book, but sadly it does not have detail photographs of the Savoia, and is generally slightly thin on the photographs front.

 

Not directly related to the Savoia, I did find a photostream of various Schneider Trophy planes that might be interesting to others:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/10559831364/in/photostream/

 

I have also found a build thread on our own forum here which has some interesting viewpoints on how the fuselage should be, which go against the general Aerotech / March models and Kayarya models, and I am tempted to agree.

 

Regards,

 

[Moggy]

I checked my library:

Schneider Trophy Aircraft 1913-1931 by Derek N. James It has a few pictures and a three view drawing of the aircraft in question.

Wings Over Water: The Story of the World’s Greatest Air Race and the Birth of the Spitfire by Jonathan Glancey - interesting technical description of the S.65.

ICARE 189 Schneider Cup 1913-1931 (french aviation history mag) It has a beautiful collection of pictures of the aircraft involved - this includes two rather good pictures of the aircraft in question.

 

Cheers, Moggy

 

 

 

 

[SprueMan]

Thank you!

I have the Jonathan Glancey (Wings over water) book, and Ralph Barker's "The Schneider trophy races", but not the two others.

[Malc2]

@Moggy Any chance you could post the pictures from ICARE 189?

 

Malc. 

[JWM]

Current Fly Past magazine has an article on Schneider Trophy inside. Have you seen it?

Regards

J-W

 

[SprueMan]

Nope, don't have that magazine where I am

[Moggy]

22 hours ago, Malc2 said:

@Moggy Any chance you could post the pictures from ICARE 189?

 

Malc. 

 

ALL the pictures? or just the S.65?

I'll see what I can do

 

Cheers, Moggy

[Moggy]

I checked the Flypast article. Well written with a number of interesting pictures and colour profiles.

No S.65 though

 

It's all straight out of Porco Rosso - or rather where the anime makers got their inspiration from

I'm still waiting for a kit of the Mamma Aiuto pirate seaplane bomber

 

Cheers, Moggy

 

 

[JWM]

23 hours ago, Moggy said:

I checked the Flypast article. Well written with a number of interesting pictures and colour profiles.

No S.65 though

Indeed, nothing on Savoia 65 there, I am sorry... It is likely because it was never on the race, it was only designed for it and crashed on Lago di Garda. That is what I've learnt on her

 Googlig I have found that 

https://www.reddit.com/r/WeirdWings/comments/v5l7vy/savioamarchetti_s65_a_pushpull_seaplane_racer/

https://oldmachinepress.com/2016/09/20/savoia-marchetti-s-65-schneider-racer/

https://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php?topic=43073.0

https://xplanes.tumblr.com/post/120593830/schneider-trophy-special-cowes-1929-savoia

https://elpoderdelasgalaxias.wordpress.com/2022/04/18/savoia-marchetti-s-65-the-other-way-around/

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Savoia-Marchetti_S.65

 

I hope it helps

Regards

J-W

 

[SprueMan]

3 hours ago, JWM said:

Indeed, nothing on Savoia 65 there, I am sorry... It is likely because it was never on the race, it was only designed for it and crashed on Lago di Garda. That is what I've learnt on her

 Googlig I have found that 

https://www.reddit.com/r/WeirdWings/comments/v5l7vy/savioamarchetti_s65_a_pushpull_seaplane_racer/

https://oldmachinepress.com/2016/09/20/savoia-marchetti-s-65-schneider-racer/

https://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php?topic=43073.0

https://xplanes.tumblr.com/post/120593830/schneider-trophy-special-cowes-1929-savoia

https://elpoderdelasgalaxias.wordpress.com/2022/04/18/savoia-marchetti-s-65-the-other-way-around/

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Savoia-Marchetti_S.65

 

I hope it helps

Regards

J-W

 

Thanks for checking though.

I have seen those photos, but others might not have so that for posting.

 

I have the french magazine on order, so I will see how it goes

[Horatio Gruntfuttock]

Either Moa or Mark Davies posted a build of the Karaya (?) kit a year or two back , April 2020 to be precise, with some very detailed explanations of what is wrong with the kit, which is I presume the one you are building. Hope this info helps, as I am in the process of building this kit but will only be doing a couple of the mods.

Here is my copy of his summary points which I hope he does not mind me posting:-

 

 

Karaya is a firmly established model manufacturer with a wide catalog that includes, to my delight, many Schneider planes. Karaya's reputation is good, but apparently my first encounter with their products was unfortunate, as I purchased a sadly inaccurate S.65.

 

To start to make this flawed kit look like the real thing, the following was done:

 

-Correct the spurious cut out on the fuselage top and sides, restoring the correct, continuous shape

-Install the side windows, deleting the spurious extra radiators (located above the correct fuselage radiators)

-Correct the shape of the elevator horn balances

-Add the headrest

-Correct the wrong position of the insertion of the float struts into the fuselage bottom

-Substitute the ridiculous resin butt-joined booms for metal inserted ones

-Correct the mistakes on the rigging

-Revise position of "V" struts at the end of the floats, moving them back as per photos

-Add boom fairings that continue on top and bottom of the elevator

 

Still, propelled by the sheer beauty of the type, some modifications were made, parts replaced with better ones, engineering revised, and many details corrected to obtain a model that if still not totally accurate, at least resembles much closely the original.

This is a missed opportunity: such fantastic plane, and a kit that came too short, not sure why, as the general quality of the parts (accuracy and engineering apart) is good.

 

The modifications to obtain a more credible model are too involving, and I wouldn't have done it if I knew from the start the challenges, but I started blinded by the good reputation of the manufacturer (whose other kits reputedly are accurate and nice to build). So I went on, feeling bad about trashing a kit of such beautiful plane that besides cost a pretty penny.

 

So here are the results of much huffing and puffing, and having to continually look at references in order not to fall into accuracy traps.

 

A paradigm of Italian design that produced a very stylized racer, and, if nothing else, a wonderful "oggetto d'arte". 

[SprueMan]

On 18/09/2022 at 20:26, Moggy said:

I checked my library:

Schneider Trophy Aircraft 1913-1931 by Derek N. James It has a few pictures and a three view drawing of the aircraft in question.

Wings Over Water: The Story of the World’s Greatest Air Race and the Birth of the Spitfire by Jonathan Glancey - interesting technical description of the S.65.

ICARE 189 Schneider Cup 1913-1931 (french aviation history mag) It has a beautiful collection of pictures of the aircraft involved - this includes two rather good pictures of the aircraft in question.

 

Cheers, Moggy

 

 

 

 

Thank you, i got the Icare magazine in the post today.

It was worth buying.

There is only one useful photograph of the S.65, but the whole magazine is full of big, lovely photographs, including of the more rarer birds. Everyone has seen a photo of the Macchi CM72 or the Supermarine S6, but the smaller entries are rarer, and there are well represented.

 

[Malc2]

Well, thanks to @Moggy and @SprueMan for binging ICARE 189 to my attention, I got my copy via bay of E today and its fantastic, the photos where possible are printed pin sharp, previously I had only seen small or out of focus copies, also some not seen before pictures. Now to try out my school boy French!

Are there there are any other good Schneider Trophy magazine/articles out there anyone could recommend?!

 

Malc.

Edited October 7, 2022 by Malc2

[Planebuilder62]

Hmm, maybe there is a bit of a theme here. Experimental seaplane built in the 1930’s with poor performace, expensive film processing, no race participation and the aircraft factory along with its design drawings probably damaged irreperably in the war and no preserved airframe. Result, just a few pictures and drawings. 

 

regards Toby

[SprueMan]

3 hours ago, Planebuilder62 said:

Hmm, maybe there is a bit of a theme here. Experimental seaplane built in the 1930’s with poor performace, expensive film processing, no race participation and the aircraft factory along with its design drawings probably damaged irreperably in the war and no preserved airframe. Result, just a few pictures and drawings. 

 

regards Toby

Yeah, you know, that had never occurred to me. Thanks for the enlightenment and the useful comment to the thread.

 

[ClaudioN]

Aeroplani SIAI 1915-1935

This book was printed in 1982 but appears to be still available second-hand. It includes three pages of Italian/English text on the S.65, a few photos and a three-view drawing.

[Malc2]

Claudio - great find!

Do you have a copy?

 

Malc.

[SprueMan]

So lads, I have been able to work a bit on the plane, but I need your help with something.

 

It seems that the engine intakes on the front engine are bigger than on the rear engine and I cannot figure out why that is.

You can see the engine here, and the engine intakes are the white oval trumpets in the middle of the engine:

 

 

When installed in the plane, these become the black holes seen in this photo (observe the black squares on the fuselage, just above the change from red(black) paint to silver:

The shadow on the front engine intake would indicate a cover on them, but I cannot figure why anyone would do that.

Usually, what you want is your engine to capture as much air as possible, so it seems silly to cover the intakes. And then why would you cover the front engine and not the rear?

 

I also have this below photo (shamelessly stolen) showing the bare engine, but sadly it does not give enough detail to tell what it is all about.

 

[Zephyr]

Just a thought, I don't really know, but the different air intakes might be because of the air velocity or volume available to each engine.

In addition I expect the rear propeller would have more pitch because it would be operating in air already accelerated by the front engine, so perhaps that would have some bearing on the RPM and power output, and therefore the inlet volume requirement, of the rear engine.

Purely speculative but that's the best I can come up with...

[SprueMan]

Its better than mine

I was not thinking about the propeller effect, only of the air flow over the fuselage.

 

I dont understand why they did not use air scoops back then…

[Malc2]

My guess is to stop water spray being ingested by the engine during taxi and take off, if you look at footage of the S5 and S6 taxiing there is an incredible amount of water thrown up.

As you know water is incompressible and if it gets in to the engine you get bent conrods and/or worse!

Having spend a whole career working with engines and engine development I have seen the effects first hand......

An air scoop down low would only make it worse.

It always surprises me that the engine supplier was not asked to put the carbs and or intake on the top of the engine like the S6 and MC72.

We forget that integrated design is common now, but rare in the 20's and 30's

 

M.

[SprueMan]

6 hours ago, Malc2 said:

My guess is to stop water spray being ingested by the engine during taxi and take off, if you look at footage of the S5 and S6 taxiing there is an incredible amount of water thrown up.

As you know water is incompressible and if it gets in to the engine you get bent conrods and/or worse!

Having spend a whole career working with engines and engine development I have seen the effects first hand......

An air scoop down low would only make it worse.

It always surprises me that the engine supplier was not asked to put the carbs and or intake on the top of the engine like the S6 and MC72.

We forget that integrated design is common now, but rare in the 20's and 30's

 

M.

Aaaa!! thank you, I think that is it!

If you look closely at the side photo, it would appear as if there is a cover to shield the air(but actually water) away form the intake.

Though I saw it on multiple photos,I thought my eyes were deceiving me, as that could not POSSIBLY be the case that you wanted LESS air into an engine, but yes, that explanation makes total sense; it is to prevent water intake.

 

When looking at the engine, I cannot fathom why they put the intake on the sides, and the exhaust on the top. What a silly idea.