Fw 190D-9 wing upper surface colours

[Vlad]

 

I'm hovering over buying one of those new IBG 1/72 Fw 190D-9s (they look really good). I'd probably do one of the box art machines, but my choice affects which kit I buy. Here are the leading options:

 

 

 

As you can see, both of these (as well as every marking option in either box) call for RLM 81 over 82 wing upper surfaces. This seems fishy to me, as many other presentations of these two aircraft specifically, and D-9s in general, have either RLM 83 over 75, or 81 over 76.

 

The question is, what colours are the above two supposed to have? Or is it a combination I haven't mentioned?

 

And is there photographic evidence for the swirl pattern on the nose cowling of the JG.2 one?

 

Thanks!

Edited September 16, 2022 by Vlad

[Graham Boak]

Before geting too involved in searching through the JP books on the Dora, could it simply be that "72" is a misprint for "82"?  Two shades of green ihas long been a suggested camouflage for these aircraft?.

[Vlad]

9 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

Before geting too involved in searching through the JP books on the Dora, could it simply be that "72" is a misprint for "82"?  Two shades of green ihas long been a suggested camouflage for these aircraft?.

 

Sorry, that was a typo on my part. The two shades of green variant would be 83 over 82, no? I did forget that one also, but I haven't seen it on other models of these two subjects.

[dov]

As I see, you are looking for colors of Luftwaffe late war aircraft.

Anyway, you are on a long time engaged in this matter, as I found threats from you of 2015 alredy.

First of all: The RLM 76 late war, which you need on both versions there are lots of result on the web already.

Not to mix up with the early 76 blue grey!

Top color is a ground camo only! Therfore RLM 81 & 82 or 83.

Color at this time was used at a minimum! Saving recurces.

 

Happy modelling 

 

[Graham Boak]

81 seems to have been in an olive green existing in at least two variants, one a dark green and the other more brownish.  Messerschmitt seems to have used the browner variant and FW to greener.  More than this is deep waters!

[Werdna]

I would tend to disregard 'numbers' in favour of 'colours'.  The '83' designation is ambiguous and now widely thought to have been a blue, and not a green at all.

 

A combination of either dark green/light green or dark green/mid grey is what I would go with, depending on the specific aircraft.

[GiampieroSilvestri]

This Junkers Ju 88 based in northern Italy was most probably painted in RLM83 blue.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 16, 2022 by GiampieroSilvestri

[Tail-Dragon]

I've always been partial to the almost schizophrenic color schemes of the pieced together airframes in the last few months of the war.

 

 

Edited September 16, 2022 by Tail-Dragon

[Graham Boak]

The Japo books do not unfortunately cover either of these aircraft, but information can be obtained for close Werke Nummer.

 

210079 was in 75/81/76 with mottles of 52.  (The JAPO book actually says 83, but they are specifically describing a dark green - presumably as opposed to the "brown violet" 81.  This was an earlier (mis)understanding.  This is plain traditional 76.

210102 of JG2 however seems to have had the wing undersides with bare metal aft of the main spar, and 76 leading edges and flying surfaces.  One u/c door however was in the blue/green colour sometimes called "Luftwaffe Sky".

210184 also of JG2 is very similar.  Note that the entire top of the cowling is a single colour 75.   This feature is also seen later but in the dark green, presumably because of the part being subcontracted.

 

500408 is a very complex scheme, here much simplified!  Basically 81 (brown) and 82 but with areas oversprayed with 83 (81 green.  The underside is pale 76 with blue/green sides.  The undersides of the wing is metal, with the ailerons 76(?) and the leading edges a dark colour - 81?   The wing uppersurfaces are unclear, if contrasting, but shortly after this they were in 81/76.

 

It is possible that the two examples in the kit are based on later information, but in view of the thoroughness of the JAPO research I suspect there's enough information there to at least doubt it.

[Vlad]

3 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

81 seems to have been in an olive green existing in at least two variants, one a dark green and the other more brownish.  Messerschmitt seems to have used the browner variant and FW to greener.  More than this is deep waters!

 

3 hours ago, Werdna said:

I would tend to disregard 'numbers' in favour of 'colours'.  The '83' designation is ambiguous and now widely thought to have been a blue, and not a green at all.

 

A combination of either dark green/light green or dark green/mid grey is what I would go with, depending on the specific aircraft.

 

Good points, I'll try to stick to this terminology!

 

41 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

The Japo books do not unfortunately cover either of these aircraft, but information can be obtained for close Werke Nummer.

 

210079 was in 74/81/76 with mottles of 52.  (The JAPO book actually says 83, but they are specifically describing a dark green - presumably as opposed to the "brown violet" 81.  Thos was an earlier (mis)understanding.  This is plain traditional 76.

210102 of JG2 however seems to have had the wing undersides with bare metal aft of the main spar, and 76 leadng edge.adn flying surfaes.  One u/c door however was in the blue/green colour sometimes called "Luftwaffe Sky".

210184 also of JG2 is very similar.  Note that the entire top of the cowling is a single colour 74.   This feature is also seen later but in the dark green, presumably because of the part being subcontracted.

 

500408 is a very complex scheme, here much simplified!  Basically 81 (brown) and 82 but with areas oversprayed with 83 (81 green.  The underside is pale 76 with blue/green sides.  The undersides of the wing is metal, with the ailerons 76(?) and the leading edges a dark colour - 81?   The wing uppersurfaces are unclear, if contrasting, but shortly after this they were in 81/76.

 

It is possible that the two examples in the kit are based on later information, but in view of the thoroughness of the JAPO research I suspect there's enough information there to at least doubt it.

 

Thank you very much for looking through JaPo and compiling this, it's close enough for the machines I'm interested in.

 

For the early machines, can I just clarify the use of RLM 74? This is the darker of the two earlier upper surface colours, my impression was that if Dark Green was to be used, it would replace the dark colour and the lighter (RLM 75) would be the remaining one.

 

But basically, the early JG2 machine is in Dark Green and Grey, while the later JG301 machine is patchwork but crucially the wings are likely to be Dark Green on Light Grey.

 

The latter is as per Eduard instructions for a different JG301 machine but with close W.Nr. (500666):

 

 

 

It also crops up in this post I found:

 

 

Edited September 16, 2022 by Vlad

[Graham Boak]

Yes, 75 not 74.  My mistake.  I'll correct the text.

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

The Japo books do not unfortunately cover either of these aircraft,

Do the Crandall books?    I don't have those.  I'll @SafetyDad  @G.R.Morrison  @David E. Brown

1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

but information can be obtained for close Werke Nummer.

Just to expand on this @Vlad  The JaPo book make a very through attempt at documenting factory schemes,  as by this stage Fw190's were built by various sub contractors, and  these frequently were quite consistent in application of colours within a specfic batch, and have individual quirks in applications of things like crosses and swastikas, their size, position and colour(s), this in turn means a Fw190D which you cannot see the werk nummer, but can see other details can sometime be identified as being from a specific factory or batch,  and a reasonable guess at what scheme is likely to be. 

There are also the two volumes on the Fw190D by the late  @Jerry Crandall  which have different photos and interpretations.   

 

FWIW

500408 5/ JG301 White 12

 

 

which was an option in the Eduard kit

 

210119

 

 

 

8 hours ago, Vlad said:

And is there photographic evidence for the swirl pattern on the nose cowling of the JG.2 one?

this maybe a batch feature, as the entire engine, including panels was sometimes supplied as a 'power egg' , but the above you can make out some detail, and this looks a low contrast defensive scheme.   

 

HTH

[MDriskill]

For what it's worth, the two classic sets of Dora magnum opus books say:

 

Jerry Crandall:

JG 2 "Black | >": 82/83 uppers (light/dark green), pale green undersides ("84," 76 variant, whatever you want to call it), light green or gray streaks on cowl.

JG 301 "White 12": 82/83 uppers, pale green undersides, underside of wing 75 leading edge to main spar line including gear covers, ailerons 76, remainder bare metal.

 

JaPo:

JG 2 "Black | >": Not covered that I can find.

JG 301 "White 12": 81/82 uppers (brown/light green), pale green undersides except 76 rudder. Underside of wing 81 leading edge to about half span including gear covers, ailerons 76, remainder bare metal.

 

Edited September 19, 2022 by MDriskill

[Jochen Barett]

I came across this interpretation of colors (doesn't look all bad to me):

 

 

 

[GiampieroSilvestri]

Like correctly said above look at the colours and forget RLM numbers.It is almost certain that RLM83 is a blue.According to Michael Ullmann this colour was used by Luftwaffe Bombers over the mediterranean.After the armistice in southern Italy in september of 1943 the aircraft were transferred to northern Italy.

 

Ciao

 

Giampiero

Edited September 16, 2022 by GiampieroSilvestri

[SafetyDad]

Thanks Troy for your heads-up and comprehensive post above. I’m away from my books now but recall that White 12 is well represented pictorially. It’s refreshing to see that other posters are moving away from using numbers to describe late-war colours. It seems the only way to convey a clear meaning now. 

[FalkeEins]

12 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

FWIW

500408 5/ JG301 White 12

 

 

see my SAM Dora-9 'Aircraft in Detail' feature for a better, albeit still rather poor, copy of that photo. I attempted this enlargement from the original print lent to me by the late James V. Crow. There's also a neat view of the starboard forward fuselage and although the Ju 88 hides most of the rear fuselage it does show that the gear covers are or appear to simply be in shadow ...

 

 

 

[Vlad]

So, seems there's some disagreement between sources about White 12 having wings that are brown over green, or brown over light grey?

 

I've seen a few people mention this is a well photographed aircraft, is anyone able to share more pictures for those of us that don't have access to these books?

[SafetyDad]

It’s going to be a couple of days before I can review what information I have. 
 

SD

[Werdna]

1 hour ago, Vlad said:

So, seems there's some disagreement between sources about White 12 having wings that are brown over green, or brown over light grey?

 

I've seen a few people mention this is a well photographed aircraft, is anyone able to share more pictures for those of us that don't have access to these books?

 

If the records are correct, then although they were from different production blocks, 500408 would have come from the same production line (ie Mimetall, Erfurt) as 500570 - which is another well-known and photographed (and much modelled) D-9.  There's also a lot of discussion of 500570's colours in the Japo books, as well as widely online - so if all else fails, you could do worse than take paint guidance from those sources.

[Vlad]

Ah, good old Blue 12 (what's with the number 12?!). That one tends to be interpreted like this:

 

 

Which adds weight to the light grey and brown wings probably being on that JG.301 White 12 too.

 

I agree with @Tail-Dragon that these messy patchwork schemes are very interesting and attractive, so this is pushing me towards the Mimetall boxing of the IBG kit.

 

Thanks all for your help with this!

[Tail-Dragon]

Yep, these are the most interesting schemes!

 

 

 

[SafetyDad]

Using Light Grey (77?) as an upper wing colour. A long way removed from the traditional ‘two greens’ …

 

SD 

[Vlad]

1 hour ago, SafetyDad said:

Using Light Grey (77?) as an upper wing colour. A long way removed from the traditional ‘two greens’ …

 

SD 

 

Some sources suggest that's RLM 76 as an upper surface colour. But those builds might be using 77.

Edited September 17, 2022 by Vlad

[Vlad]

delete

Edited September 17, 2022 by Vlad