Chinese Ju-52 mottle camouflage question

[28ZComeback]

Hello all. I found a photo of a Chinese Ju-52 purportedly used by Chiang Kai Shek. The caption states that the color scheme is green mottle over bare metal but I think it's actually a light green mottle over light gray. I would appreciate your opinion as to what colors are in play here. Thank you. 

http://cwlam2000.epizy.com/caf14.htm

[Orso]

Which one is the pic of the mottle painted Junkers.

I can't see anything that resembles that in those pictures. Looks like the normal Junkers silver and black scheme to me.

[28ZComeback]

It's the seventh photo down the page. It's very light. 

[Orso]

Looks just like a bad picture. You can't see where the roof ends and the background starts. It look just the same. 

[Massimo Tessitori]

http://cwlam2000.epizy.com/caf14.files/image012.jpg

It really resembles a metallic or grey Ju-52 with green mottles. No codes or details are visible, but I suppose they should be. It's a weak base to paint a model.

[modelldoc]

The Ju-52 c/n 4044, D-3382, later D-ABAN was send to China on 29th of August 1934 and arrived Shanghai on 6th of September 1934. Than it tours  to Canton, Nanking, Peking, Tientsin and Tsingtao and finally sold to the Goverment in April 1935 for use by Chiang Kai-shek as a VIP transport.

 

I think, the plane was in standard German colors during this time.

 

modelldoc

[modelldoc]

Picture of D-ABAN in Germany:

 

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Ju-52/Civil/pages/Lufthansa-Junkers-Ju-52-3m-airliner-D-ABAN-later-to-Eurasia-China-1934-01.html

 

BTW, can'T open the file from cwlam.

 

modelldoc

[Orso]

I have finally seen the pic in the book and if I was to build it I would go for a mid/dark green. But there isn't much to see of the markings on the plane.

 

A bit funny marking is the Lufthansa plane when it was handed over to the Chinese military:

https://m.xuite.net/blog/jpfu0313/twblog/135857505 

Full standard Lufthansa livery and with the Chinese blue/white markings added to the wings.

The model is missing the swastika flag on the left side of the tail and I guess it had the striped German flag on the right side

[modelldoc]

I think do you mean "A History of Chinese Aviation" from AHS of ROC, page 122.

Right, the plane has the full German markings and the white sun is at the end of the wing.

For the tail on the right it is black-white-red striped, here is the order for that:

 

"...Before that, however, there had been a change in the external appearance of the German aircraft. In an "Aviation Flag Ordinance" published in the Reichsgesetzblatt of 8 July 1933, the Reich flag in the form of black-white-red horizontal stripes, which had hitherto been to be carried on both sides of the tailplane, was now to be replaced on the port side by the new swastika flag...."

 

modelldoc

[Blimpyboy]

If the aircraft’s indeed been repainted (I’m assuming the original photo/negative hasn’t deteriorated badly to give the appearance of camouflaging), would the mottle have been a variation of the dull dark green used on many other Nationalist birds?

If so, these threads may come in handy:

and
http://www.aviationofjapan.com/2013/03/curtiss-hawk-monoplanes-for-china-pt-1.html?m=1

and

http://www.aviationofjapan.com/2013/04/curtiss-hawk-monoplanes-for-china-pt-2.html?m=1

 

 

 

FYI, this page has photos of both sides of the aircraft, before its handover to the Generalissimo:

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=338454.

 

Sticking with these markings, Tiger Wings sheet 72-104 has an option for this bird; however these markings are pre-handover (I presume) and have incorrect tail markings (unlike the combination mentioned by @modelldoc, and the photos at the top of this post).

There’s a picture of the Tiger Wings sheet on the Hong Kong eBay site:

https://www.ebay.com.hk/itm/Tiger-wings-1-72-R-O-C-JU-52-Junkers-C-47-A-B-Skytrain-Decals-/221306519149#vi__app-cvip-panel.

 

Otherwise, another profile of this bird can be found here:

https://gkjlai.pixnet.net/blog/post/467390585-空軍學術雙月刊第669期(108-04)----中華民國使用.

 

 

Edited September 10, 2022 by Blimpyboy

[28ZComeback]

I agree with D-ABAN.  It flew until 1944 according to Lennart Andrerson in his Air Enthusiast article, Autumn 1995.

[Blimpyboy]

 

But wait, there's more...

 

This site (https://rexkuang326.pixnet.net/blog/post/349307641-鐵安妮~容克斯-ju-52-3mge) also has a few photos of D-ABAN (Emil Thuy), before and after handover to the Nationalists.

The caption under the last photo mentions that the rudder was painted with blue and white stripes, and that the fuselage was painted with a slightly mottled green paint.

That, to me, would indicate that the green was sprayed over the extant aluminium colour (or whatever the Eurasia Ju 52s were painted), which would tally with the mottling applied to some other aircraft types in the Nationalist air forces - often being sprayed over the existing light background colour.

 

However...

The 'before' photos (the first three, below) show black detailing painted around the nose and wing nacelle areas, while the 'after' photos (the bottom two, below) seem to show no black-painted areas. My question is, was the black removed or was the entire aircraft painted a light grey colour before any mottling was applied?

Sadly, I have no idea - over to the floor for other thoughts!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 11, 2022 by Blimpyboy

[Blimpyboy]

And, yet another picture claiming to show D-ABAN (again, this one has no black nose or wing cowls):

https://m.xuite.net/photo/jpfu0313/19786163/287
 

 

Edited September 11, 2022 by Blimpyboy

[28ZComeback]

I do know that the plane was overall light gray (or aluminum) with the factory-applied black nose and nacelles repainted at the time of Chiang Kai Sheks release from the kidnapping episode during the Xian incident in late 1936. There is a news reel showing him exit the plane that was sent to retrieve him. Perhaps the plane was repainted after an overhaul or to differentiate it from other airliners? 

Edited September 11, 2022 by 28ZComeback

[JWM]

No one of linked profiles/decals show the white-blue stripes on rudder which are clearly seen on first photo. Te ceredibility of profiles is low, the Boeing 247 is displayed without gunner on top (one of them had it), and the Ca-111 was never delivered to China AFAIK (althoug it existed in China colors).

I think that photo shows at least tail painted in a dark colors with stripped rudder

J-W