HMS Surf - S-Class submarine, Starling Models 1/350

[robgizlu]

So with figure painting left to do before an RFI for HMS Colombo, with perfect timing my wonderful Postie Lizzie delivered this today.

 

 

My first Sub in 1/350, and HMS Surf wil lbe the choice of subject.  The model depicts the third batch of S-Class submarines - dimensions were slightly altered from the first 2 classes.  This enables you to model any one of 32 boats and the supplied decals fully enable this. One of the attractions, at least for me with this class is the number of different paint schemes that appeared.  The class has been made famous by RNVR Edward Young's classic book "One of our submarinies", which describes his naval career and command of HMS Storm, the first submarine command for an RNVR officer.

 

 

I've literally just finished it and can report that it's a fabulous read, well written and totally understated.  He mentions HMS Storm originally being in Navy Grey and then repainting to Dark Blue in 1942 whilst operating in the Mediterranean, presumably describing PB10, more of this enigmatic colour later.  When Storm was sent to the Far East, interestingly she was painted "Dark Green".

 

So here's a picture of HMS Surf early in her career in likely 507A

 

 

and to contrast here's a picture of Storm on her return to UK in April 1945 in her "Overseas" scheme

 

 

I'm going to depict Surf in her Summer 1943 Camo scheme but sadly I can't show you the picture as it's under copyright with "Getty images".

I can however bid you visit the site to see some astonishing Colour pics of her alongside her Depot ship HMS Forth in June 1943.  Check out the colour scheme on HMS Forth and match the colours to Sovereign's Colourcoats - Spot-on every one!!

 

https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/photos/submarine-depot-ship-hms-forth

 

Surf is in a scheme of topsides white with 507A "bars" that stretch over the conning tower (sail) with a PB10 hull and a deck of black or non slip grey.  this seems to have been unique in that I've not found another quite like it after a fair amount of research.  Considering the overall "covert" nature of Submarines, the S-Class seem remarkably well photographed including some excellent colour photos.

 

Here are some pics from IWM collection sin b&w of HMS Forth and her nestlings

 

 

 

 

 

And here's my favourite of HMS Seadog wearing her PB10 on her ballast tank hull section...

 

 

The only available commercial model paint for PB10 is by Hataka.  Sadly Jamie hasn't offered it yet iin the Colourcoat range so I'll be using an acrylic approximation.

 

The instructions are coloured and relatively simple for a simple build

 

 

There are 4 different suggested schemes that do not include 507A "Home Fleet Grey

 

 

The colour profiles hale from Sovereign's "C.B, 3088 (45) The Camoflage of Ships at Sea" and are very attractive.  Despite the operational scheme for Overseas "Far East/Pacific theatre" being depicted as G45 Storm is undoubtedly in white in her return to UK photos (don't you think?)

 

 

So to the kit.......

 

 

The Hull is beautifully moulded with absolutley No flaws.  Separation from the moulding suppport should be straightforward.  The etch is thin and the decals allow all of the 32 different vessels (listed in the instructions) to be depicted. 

 

The Conning tower and "bits" are 3D printed and look terrific.  The barrels of the 3 inch gun and oerlikon are slightly bent which is a common finding for 3D but should straighten out with persuasion.

 

 

 

My plan is to model Surf in a base gently cruising 

 

 

Anticipated problems are:

1)  Cutting the sink profile accurately (tricky given the nature of the profile in the water)

2)  Obtaining some masks to depict the Conning tower pennant number as Surk used very light ?white or MS4A over her white background paint so that there is very little contrast.  It's possible that the hite decals will replicate this as Colourcoats white is not "bright", we'll see

3)  Choosing a blue that realistically represents PB10

 

All in all, I think so far that Mr McCabe has done us proud, and I sincerely hope that this sells like hot-cakes.

 

More soon after a C to C ride next week

Thanks for looking

Rob

[beefy66]

looks like another fine model from Starling there Rob and I am sure will be another very interesting build.  👍

 

Stay Safe

beefy

[TallBlondJohn]

Hmmm. I suspect G45 is correct. This photo looks rather over-exposed in bright sunshine and there is still a contrast between the ensign, the sailor's cap (white, obviously) and the conning tower (not quite white...). Add in scale effect and I think a conventional white will look wrong.

 

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

Hi Rob,

 

This looks like it's going to be a great thread but I'm going to throw a bit of a spanner in the works.

 

Admiralty Fleet Order 2106/43 which introduced the G&B series paints in April 1943 does not include PB.10 or anything equivalent. It lists and gives formulae for G5, G10, B15, G20, B30, G45 and B55.

 

Admiralty Fleet Order 3113/44 in June 1944 generally repeats the contents of AFO2106/43 but does include B20 as obtained by mixing equal parts B15 and B30.

 

Confidential Admiralty Fleet Order 2269/44 issued on 12th October 1944 formally introduced the standardised camouflage schemes I've made facsimile copies of via CB3098-1945 edition which you referenced. CAFO2269 describes the same Scheme A, B, C etc as CB3098/45 but the attached diagrams referred to in the text are missing from the copies I've seen in The National Archives. The order also re-issues the same G&B paint formulae as AFO3113 but now introduces PB.10.

 

Confidential Admiralty Fleet Order 2270/44 issued on the same date provides more printed sketches of the same submarine camouflage scheme from various angles and ends with the following text:

"3. The pure deep blue colour PB. 10 will assist recognition only from relatively close ranges in daylight, since beyond a certain range (which varies with atmospheric conditions and is greater in bright sunlight than in overcast weather) contrasts of colour are not apparent. When the blue is visible as a colour it will appear bluer than the sea or sky background, even on cloudless days."

 

The above seems to strongly suggest that October 1944 was the first introduction of PB.10 to the submarine fleet. I'm conscious though that a memo written in 1939 contained in CB3016 read:

 

"Sir,

With reference to your letter No.N.C.388/6801 of 8th November, 1939, I am commanded by My Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty to inform you that H.M. Ships on foreign stations are painted as follows (vide C.B.3016 (37), paragraph 261, and C.B.3016 (34), paragraph 179):-

 

Cruisers and larger vessels - light grey all over.

Destroyers - dark grey hulls and light grey upper works.

Submarines - royal blue on Mediterranean Station, and dark olive colour on China Station

 

2. All ships of the Home Fleet, including submarines, are painted Home Fleet grey, and a matt surface paint is employed at home and on foreign stations."

 

It's difficult to categorically rule out submariners using their own paint colours for their own purposes, but we can be reasonably comfortable that PB.10 probably didn't exist in an official capacity at least prior to late 1944. I did discuss those HMS Forth photographs with @dickrd a while ago, and our agreement was that we were looking at Home Fleet grey on those boats.

 

 

[robgizlu]

Hi Jamie - Thanks - I'm aware that PB.10 only gets mentioned officially "late"

 

However Edward Young in "One of our submarines" states (Sept 1942) when arriving at Gibraltar, "Three other submarines were alongside, painted dark blue to make them less conspicuous when submerged in the clear Mediterranean water".  And later, "And after a few days for embarking stores and painting the submarine dark blue, Saracen was sent off on a short working-up patrol...".

Possibly an unofficial local colour though on balance hard to believe that this wasn't some iteration of PB.10 as per the "Royal Blue" comment from 1939

 

There's also the photo of HMS Seadog above attributed to 1942 by the IWM which to me shows blue tanks in contrast to the dark Grey (507A) upper hull

 

Out of curiosity, what's your take on HMS Storm in her 1945 guise, white or G45?

Rob

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

I think there are enough anecdotal accounts of dark blues before the official PB10 roll out that there probably was something the submariners were doing beyond the official advice.

 

The reason I've never made PB10 is that I still can't find an ultramarine liquid tint compatible with enamel base and it just doesn't work with the wrong blue. I did use artists pigments though to find out what it should look like. It's a mix of only ultramarine and white and the PB10 tells us it's a 10% RF paint. Perhaps unsurprisingly the paint I have most like it is NARN33 B5 / B15, but PB10 is just that bit more brilliant and that's why I can't arrive at it by adding more things which aren't ultramarine into it.

 

 

It was easy enough to make from pigments, although rather iterative and tedious as you have to adjust it a bit, paint it out, wait for it to dry, measure it, calculate the RF, rinse and repeat. The Snyder & Short colour Hataka has made is much too dull, either because the binder yellowed in the decades elapsed on the sample observed or possibly it was never actually PB10 at all but an unofficial "royal blue" mix.

 

 

As for G45 versus white - that's a tough one, and it depends on where and when it was taken. G45 can look a bit dull in overcast weather in Scapa Flow, but similarly when KGV was photographed in Australia her upperworks look almost white too.

 

I'd probably lean towards G45 myself, and buy a great big sod-off daylight spotlamp to shine at the model when looking at it  

 

[Courageous]

Waiting for my kit arrive although I'm not sure when I'll build it.

 

Stuart

[whitestar12chris]

Hi Rob, mines ordered and winging its way from Mike. Its a great kit to go alongside Starling's T class. With regards to PB10, im using this colour for my HMS Upholder build and have secured an acrylic version by Hataka, after much looking this is the only one i found. Hence switching from enamels to acylics for this build. As Jamie says colours for RN submarines are a minefield and good references are hard to find. 

 

All the best Chris

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

It's probably worth me being a little less vague about PB10.

 

Hataka's RN set is just copies of the Snyder & Short colours / the old WEM Colourcoats colours complete with Snyder & Short's casual descriptions capitalised to look official e.g. MS4 Light Grey (Warm) - MS4 was simply called MS4.

 

As far as PB10 is concerned Hataka doesn't know anything I don't here - the reason I don't make PB10 is because it can't be made without ultramarine (as a commercially available liquid tint). I could make the colour Snyder & Short chips show like Hataka has, but I haven't because it isn't a particularly great representation of PB10 which was a blue of 10% Reflectivity Factor. The fact it's not a great match for PB10 any more is why it can easily be made with substitute pigment. There's no reason in this case to doubt the origin of Snyder & Short's chip - it probably was a sample of PB10 - but like most of the others it was a many decades old linseed oil paint sample and it's darkened and shifted with age.

 

 

If happy enough with it, fair enough I've no issue with it. I just wanted to point out that regardless what it says on the label, there isn't a model paint well matched to PB10 on sale at present, and if you want one you'll unfortunately have to make it with artist's products which admittedly can be good fun.

 

A different way of illustrating this may be as follows. We know the pigmentation for PB10 - it's written down in CAFO2269/44:

 

- 51lbs of AP409 white lead oil paste

- 20lbs of AP104 zinc oxide oil paste

- 24lbs of AP8P ultramarine blue oil paste

- 6 pints linseed oil, extra pale, boiled

- 3 pints AP773 liquid driers

- 7 pints white spirit

 

This is lovely and easy, as in terms of colour you can treat the two white components as white and examine what happens varying the ratio of white to ultramarine. There are no other tints present so the envelope this final colour lands in is pretty much just a one-dimensional scale with a small allowance for how red or not the ultramarine blue is.

 

Ultramarine as you're probably aware is super-intense. I think it's an absolutely beautiful colour. In dry pigment form it looks like it belongs in a Stingray set.

 

Wetted with a typical paint binder and we get something like this:

 

To get something other than a colour along that line you need to add something else to the mix which doesn't belong there (or your paint binder needs to have turned dark yellow).

 

This is something I prepared previously for another conversation but I've added the Snyder & Short PB10 to it. You can see that it doesn't fit there. There's no way to mix just white and ultramarine and arrive at that. That's why I have never produced a paint matched to this chip. That's also why I'm incapable of making the resultant colour using a blue pigment that isn't ultramarine since any attempt to balance the red/green axis (rapidly) desaturates the blue axis and you end up with a blue-grey appearance.

[robgizlu]

Thanks @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies, that is hugely helpful, without this I'd have gone for a duller darker blue.  I've come up with a mix using Vallejo Model Air that I'll unveil later on in the build.

 

A template was very carefully cut though in truth - posing HMS Surf at waterline means that I'll need to "fill-in" the gap as the widest part of the ballast tank hull lies "underwater".  You'll see what I mean as I get there.

 

 

And there she sits with the sail attached

 

 

I thought I'd "pre-shade" the vents though they'll likely need additional dark wash later

 

 

The next point of business was "fill" the ballast tank blow valves with the tiny 3D printed pieces......

 

 

Fiddly!!  

They are best removed with a sharp sprue cutter as once they are removed they are near impossible to hold to file.

I found that CA Gel glue was better than PVA and I use a cocktail stick wetted with my tongue one end to "pick-up" the valves.  Careful as to which cocktail stick because I also used one to apply the CA glue 

 

 

There are spares provided and so far I've only managed to lose 1!!

 

The etch supplied is top notch with grooves where you divide from the sprue making life that little bit easier.  I use a No 11 blade to cut PE.  

 

If you do NOT have a Tamiya Diamond file you NEED one - thanks go to @Ex-FAAWAFU for that tip.  So much better than files I have used before, on delicate pieces I just run the file in ONE direction only, normally 2-3 runs removes any burrs.

 

Grills are added to the Sail and to the decks together with a stand-board in the sail

 

 

 

 

The sprue attachment points to the periscope housings were very thick and required a lot of very delicate filing.

Interestingly when I went back to look at the photo that I can't publish - despite the white hull, the sail furniture including periscope housings are in 507C.

 

So onto primer and the first time ever I had trouble spraying Alclad (which I've used as it probably stands up better to masking over it so as to prevent the dreaded "paint-lifting").  It's worth saying that I carefully washed the hull in deteregent thoroughly first.

I suspect that the Alclad had passed it's sell by date so it was binned.

 

 

 

It was left to dry overnight - gently rubbed with mcrocloth and then Colourcoatss white was applied

 

 

3 separate white coats in all and left to dry 6 hours before masking ...

 

 

and then 507A Narn 20 13% RF

 

 

Yowsa yowsa!

More soon - thanks for looking

Rob

[psdavidson]

1 hour ago, robgizlu said:

If you do NOT have a Tamiya Diamond file you NEED one

Motion seconded!

[Richard E]

Another masterpiece in the making.

 

If I could presume to offer a suggestion: although finding the right references might be challenging, a full hull S Class presented in a drydock setting could make an interesting display. 

[robgizlu]

13 hours ago, Richard E said:

Another masterpiece in the making.

 

If I could presume to offer a suggestion: although finding the right references might be challenging, a full hull S Class presented in a drydock setting could make an interesting display. 

 

Hi Richard - you're right - it's a shame to hide away the beautifully moulded hull...however the clean and sleak lines of these on the surface won over. 

And Thanks 

Rob

[Courageous]

She is looking very nice Rob.

Question Rob, are you going to do the base like your previous builds, if so, I think she sits too high in the water, those aft planes should be below the surface?

 

Stuart

[Chewbacca]

Looking great.  Despite having joined the RN with the intent of becoming a submariner, after a career shift into the Fleet Air Arm I have always just looked on submarines as potential targets so have never felt the urge to model one but I totally get why a lot of others do and these latest crop of kits from @Mike McCabe (and others) are so good I could be tempted.

 

On 22/09/2022 at 20:31, robgizlu said:

I found that CA Gel glue was better than PVA and I use a cocktail stick wetted with my tongue one end to "pick-up" the valves.  Careful as to which cocktail stick because I also used one to apply the CA glue 

 

I now have the image that I cannot get out of my head of a cocktail stick permanently stuck to your tongue.  😁

 

 

On 22/09/2022 at 20:31, robgizlu said:

So onto primer and the first time ever I had trouble spraying Alclad (which I've used as it probably stands up better to masking over it so as to prevent the dreaded "paint-lifting").  It's worth saying that I carefully washed the hull in deteregent thoroughly first.

I suspect that the Alclad had passed it's sell by date so it was binned.

 

It's interesting that you and others on here swear by Alclad as a primer especially for resin.  I've only ever used it once (HMS PUMA) and as soon as I masked for the boot topping over 50% of the ships side grey and underlying primer lifted off with the masking tape.  Went back to a Halfords rattle can and no problem.  And I'm sure mine wasn't past its use by date as it was only 3 or 4 weeks old.

 

 

[Bertie McBoatface]

Those reference photos are very evocative. I swear I could hear seagulls. This looks like being an interesting topic.

 

On 9/7/2022 at 11:50 PM, TallBlondJohn said:

Add in scale effect and I think a conventional white will look wrong.

 

That's very true.

[robgizlu]

18 hours ago, Courageous said:

She is looking very nice Rob.

Question Rob, are you going to do the base like your previous builds, if so, I think she sits too high in the water, those aft planes should be below the surface?

 

Stuart

Hi Stu - Yup appreciated that.  I've cut some grooves in the styrofoam so the aft planes just about sit flat and then they'll be covered with Gloss medium.  Well that's the plan anyway   They did sit quite low in the water.

 

2 hours ago, Chewbacca said:

Looking great.  Despite having joined the RN with the intent of becoming a submariner, after a career shift into the Fleet Air Arm I have always just looked on submarines as potential targets so have never felt the urge to model one but I totally get why a lot of others do and these latest crop of kits from @Mike McCabe (and others) are so good I could be tempted.

 

 

I now have the image that I cannot get out of my head of a cocktail stick permanently stuck to your tongue.  😁

 

 

 

It's interesting that you and others on here swear by Alclad as a primer especially for resin.  I've only ever used it once (HMS PUMA) and as soon as I masked for the boot topping over 50% of the ships side grey and underlying primer lifted off with the masking tape.  Went back to a Halfords rattle can and no problem.  And I'm sure mine wasn't past its use by date as it was only 3 or 4 weeks old.

 

 

 

Thanks Chewie.  I've never trusted to rattle cans - they just seem so unpredictable as to their delivery of paint.  I spray very thin coats of paint or primer with the airbrush.  Ultimately I think paint lifts because I/we haven't sufficiently cleaned the surface.  I might part withthe Alclad and use Mig One-shot Ammo on future projects partly due to cost.  As to the cocktail stick......yeah, I'd have real difficulty going to my local MIU 

 

45 minutes ago, Bertie McBoatface said:

Those reference photos are very evocative. I swear I could hear seagulls. This looks like being an interesting topic.

 

 

That's very true.

Thanks Bertie - if you've checked out the Getty images - they are soo evocative.

 

Rob

[Mike McCabe]

Just catching up, looks great so far Rob and hope you are enjoying the build, if you could send me some photos when finished I would really appreciate it!

 

By the way, both the S and T classes have sold well which I am very pleased about, the S has recouped costs after just a few weeks so I will hopefully look to do a U class at some point.

 

Mike

[Terry1954]

Hi Rob. I discovered this build in a bit of a roundabout way, in that I saw the pictures first via your Flickr feed! That of course, made me start looking in the obvious place.........

 

A great start on what looks like a superb little model. Starling certainly do produce some beautiful maritime kits, credit to you @Mike McCabe. And of course, any maritime build worth it's sort on here will always attract some incredible colour dialogue from @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies which is fascinating reading in itself. Your description for matching to PB10 sounds very interesting Jamie! I know so little about maritime colouring, but always learn in these threads.

 

I'll follow along, as your maritime builds are always exquisite to view Rob. Actually, all your builds are!

 

Terry

[Norman]

Looking very nice !

[Gisbod]

Golly, what amazing photos on the Getty link! 
 

Looking good Rob!

 

Guy

[Michael M]

It'd definitely look cool in dry dock on the blocks, covered in all that mighty Pacific scum  I'm using all my willpower to prevent myself from buying one. I'll wait for U and do one of the Polish Navy ones.... maybe 😜

[socjo1]

15 hours ago, Michael M said:

. I'll wait for U and do one of the Polish Navy ones.... maybe 😜

 

Me too 😉

ORP Sokół (Polish Warship Falcon) with Jolly Roger flag and trophy German colors, March 1944. 

Best regards,

Michal

Edited September 29, 2022 by socjo1

[robgizlu]

On 9/24/2022 at 10:35 PM, Mike McCabe said:

Just catching up, looks great so far Rob and hope you are enjoying the build, if you could send me some photos when finished I would really appreciate it!

 

By the way, both the S and T classes have sold well which I am very pleased about, the S has recouped costs after just a few weeks so I will hopefully look to do a U class at some point.

 

Mike

Thanks Mike - pleased these are selling well - thoroughly deserve to.  And yes thoroughly enjoying the build.

 

On 9/25/2022 at 5:04 PM, Terry1954 said:

Hi Rob. I discovered this build in a bit of a roundabout way, in that I saw the pictures first via your Flickr feed! That of course, made me start looking in the obvious place.........

 

A great start on what looks like a superb little model. Starling certainly do produce some beautiful maritime kits, credit to you @Mike McCabe. And of course, any maritime build worth it's sort on here will always attract some incredible colour dialogue from @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies which is fascinating reading in itself. Your description for matching to PB10 sounds very interesting Jamie! I know so little about maritime colouring, but always learn in these threads.

 

I'll follow along, as your maritime builds are always exquisite to view Rob. Actually, all your builds are!

 

Terry

 

Thanks Terry - cheque is in the post 

 

On 9/28/2022 at 7:27 AM, Gisbod said:

Golly, what amazing photos on the Getty link! 
 

Looking good Rob!

 

Guy

 

Aren't they!

 

On 9/28/2022 at 9:27 PM, Michael M said:

It'd definitely look cool in dry dock on the blocks, covered in all that mighty Pacific scum  I'm using all my willpower to prevent myself from buying one. I'll wait for U and do one of the Polish Navy ones.... maybe 😜

 

Looking forwards to it Michael

 

On 9/28/2022 at 9:56 PM, socjo1 said:

 

Me too 😉

ORP Sokół (Polish Warship Falcon) with Jolly Roger flag and trophy German colors, March 1944. 

Best regards,

Michal

 

And same for you Michal

 

Close examination of the Getty images shows that Surf had deck "edges" done in dark grey or black colour wheras the deck proper was 507A.  I chose to represent the edges in Non-slip grey so with some careful masking

 

 

 

 

 

We get to this ...

 

 

which doesn't really stand out and in hindsight I should probably have used black as the "edge"

 

So now to PB10.  RF of 10 so darker than B15 but not a s dull or dark as the hataka offering.  I settled on Vallejo Modl Air Deep sky : Russian AF Blue at a ratio of 2 : 1.

 

 

 

And it was an immediate reminder as to how well enamels cover compared to acrylics.  It took 4 separate coats to get to this

 

 

 

 

I'm satisfied that this is close enough.  

 

And so to a quick diversion, XY resin studded anchor chain is no longer available 

But "Bunker Studios" have releases something similar and this arrived from Hobby Easy - 5 day delivery from across the world and very reasonable prices.  They are currently due a restock

 

 

A left-over piece of XY is above and the Bunker studio below.  And yes 2 small pieces of chain DID come in that size box

 

 

It is slightly finer and marginally bigger.  The 1/700 offering is similar.  A worthy alternative IMHO

One box supplies 2 pieces of 1/350 chain each about 11cms long

Thanks for looking 

More soon

Rob

[JohnWS]

Nice masking job, Rob. 

 

John