LSSAH Ardennes Panther g ref pics/camo schemes

[Muchmirth]

Hi all,

Looking for a bit of help with regards to camo scheme/ref pictures or drawings for a LSSAH/1st SS Leibstandarte division during the bulge offensive? I’d like to model a panther G in an striking camo scheme (in ambush camo pattern would be good)? If anyone has any ref pics or camo scheme drawings I’d be grateful? … I’m too tight to spend the £40 or so quid on a copy of panzer wrecks duels in the mist editions.😉 I have the aft decals but looking for a unique kind of pattern/different to standard tri tone strips/clouds. I believe the camo patterns weren’t too strict by then as down to individual crew/units to paint them selves? I was hoping to do a zig zag white wash over ambush dot and wondering if can get away with that. I’ve searched and searched on line but drew a blank.

thanks

Edited September 7, 2022 by Muchmirth
Added question

[JackG]

I don't have anything immediate to post in terms of images, but I think the opposite is true concerning the ambush scheme.   All three colours were applied at the factory, though there probably was some variation from one factory to the next. 

 

Echelon decals researched product for Kampfgruppe Peiper do show some variety:

https://ca.super-hobby.com/products/1.-SS-Pz.Rgt.-Panthers-Ardennes-1944-45-Kampfgruppe-Peiper.html

 

[Muchmirth]

3 hours ago, JackG said:

I don't have anything immediate to post in terms of images, but I think the opposite is true concerning the ambush scheme.   All three colours were applied at the factory, though there probably was some variation from one factory to the next. 

 

Echelon decals researched product for Kampfgruppe Peiper do show some variety:

https://ca.super-hobby.com/products/1.-SS-Pz.Rgt.-Panthers-Ardennes-1944-45-Kampfgruppe-Peiper.html

 

Thanks Jack….of course they were factory applied, dope, I was thinking of normal tri tone from earlier!! Plenty to pick from here. This is exactly what I was after. 

[Muchmirth]

3 hours ago, JackG said:

I don't have anything immediate to post in terms of images, but I think the opposite is true concerning the ambush scheme.   All three colours were applied at the factory, though there probably was some variation from one factory to the next. 

 

Echelon decals researched product for Kampfgruppe Peiper do show some variety:

https://ca.super-hobby.com/products/1.-SS-Pz.Rgt.-Panthers-Ardennes-1944-45-Kampfgruppe-Peiper.html

 

Do you think they might have added white wash over the top of these during the campagne? 

[JackG]

It's unlikely that Panther crews would apply brown and green paint to their vehicles, because an order in September 1944 instructed the factories to apply the three paints directly to the primed surfaces.  This means the dark yellow was no longer sprayed overall, but in camou shapes with the other two colours painted next to it ( and not over it).   LSSAH, according to a couple books in my reference library, lost all their tanks on the Normandy front by August 1944.   Their next replenishment came late in October/November with a shipment of 38 Panthers for the Ardennes offensive. 

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/missinglynx/viewtopic.php?p=361197#p361197

 

Just reading snippets from google and forums, when Kampfgruppe Peiper was formed, it included all of 1st SS Panthers.  Apparently on the 24th of December, with the advance stalled, cut off from supplies and no contact with other friendly units, the order was given to abandon all vehicles.  Those that could do so retreated on foot.   According to the linked pdf of a report on the weather, it was only on the 22nd that snow began to fall, so that leaves barely two days for possibly applying white washes to the armour.   I don't think any photos are known to illustrate this. 

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA121480.pdf

 

[Muchmirth]

Ah that’s brilliant. Thanks for your help. I’ll stick with the ambush camo on its own. 
thanks again 

Paul

[JackG]

Something not sitting well with me was the quoted losses of all Panthers when the retreat was carried out.   The wording can be taken any number of ways, so it requires something more concrete in terms of numbers.   Pointed out here is that it was only the Kampfgruppe's encirclement at LaGleize that resulted in 13 Panthers being left behind.

https://community.battlefront.com/topic/57566-anyone-know-the-actual-makeup-of-kg-peiper/

 

Another source give 22 lost Panthers up to Dec. 27th.   So that means at least 16 Panthers were still operational somewhere, but the point is mute modelling purposes if they can't be identified with photos.

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=114669

 

 

this past thread may be of some use:

 

 

Concerning Duel in the Mist, there are actually three volumes, but perhaps you already knew this as you mentioned edition in plural form.   I have seen the first volume, and it includes some nice illustrations of the different factory schemes as presented by Hillary Doyle copyrighted 2007.   Maybe his Panther illustrations can be found in other publications, but I agree the out of print pricing makes it more a connoisseur choice with deep pockets.

 

 

regards,

Jack

[Muchmirth]

19 hours ago, JackG said:

Something not sitting well with me was the quoted losses of all Panthers when the retreat was carried out.   The wording can be taken any number of ways, so it requires something more concrete in terms of numbers.   Pointed out here is that it was only the Kampfgruppe's encirclement at LaGleize that resulted in 13 Panthers being left behind.

https://community.battlefront.com/topic/57566-anyone-know-the-actual-makeup-of-kg-peiper/

 

Another source give 22 lost Panthers up to Dec. 27th.   So that means at least 16 Panthers were still operational somewhere, but the point is mute modelling purposes if they can't be identified with photos.

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=114669

 

 

this past thread may be of some use:

 

 

Concerning Duel in the Mist, there are actually three volumes, but perhaps you already knew this as you mentioned edition in plural form.   I have seen the first volume, and it includes some nice illustrations of the different factory schemes as presented by Hillary Doyle copyrighted 2007.   Maybe his Panther illustrations can be found in other publications, but I agree the out of print pricing makes it more a connoisseur choice with deep pockets.

 

 

regards,

Jack

Yeah I was a little baffled by this too and couldn’t quite remember how long KG Peiper had fought on (having read steel and snow by Peter Caddick Adams around Xmas was what got me wanting to do a panther in the Ardennes, he goes into a lot of depth but the book was only a loan). Really recommend the book if your interested, great read on the subject. 
   I had actually read the britmodeller forum excerpt that you attached when researching. It was actually your pics from the 25th pz gren that got me debating a white wash zig zag pattern.

   Yeah I saw duels in the mist was a few editions just as you say though bit on the pricey side and I’m a bit obsessive so would have to get all three available!!

  Think I’m getting closer to my choice it’s prob going to be the rfm model done   as panther no. 124 disc pattern or 223 in dot pattern. I’ve the option of 131 (disc pattern) of which I’ve found a good few pics (of it being disabled) but I’ve also seen a few other people having already done this one. … so getting closer… it’s between those three. 
 
  Big thanks,

Paul.