Grumman F4F-3 colours

[detail is everything]

1 hour ago, MDriskill said:

I can't add much to the discussion on camo! Thanks for that additional link. 

 

I definitely agree with "Theory 2" to explain the cowl, i.e. simply replacing the "dash 90" engine - I had the same thought that Martlet II spares are the simplest explanation. The 2-stage intercooled "dash 86" would surely have been a much more complex job to install, not sure how available it would have been at the time (first Martlet to have it was the Mk V), or what advantage it would have given for low-level convoy protection, etc. Also, those late F4F-3's cowls with the "dash 86" and hidden carb intake had 4 pairs of cooling gills.

 

Yes, the more I think about it the more unlikely "Theory 1" is and likely "Theory 2" is.  I assume most Martlet IIs going to the Indian Ocean via the Suez Canal  in 1942 for Operation Ironclad and back again for Operation Torch would have required some stores provision in Egypt and these would have been utilised by the resident Martlet IIIs to keep them going in North Africa and the subsequent move to East Africa.

[tempestfan]

On 9/14/2022 at 4:32 PM, MDriskill said:

And here is a wrinkle (literally) that may (or may not) be relevant here.

 

This photo shows Bu. No. 1845, the second F4F-3 to be built. The clearance for the intercooler flange of its R-1830-76 engine is not the separate blister seen on later aircraft, but a subtle bulge formed integrally with the panel. Compare to the later "dash 3" in the background:

 

 

 

Is it possible that some early Wildcats which appear to lack the intercooler bump, in fact have this earlier version? I'm still scratching my head on it...I honestly don't know, as it's so subtle as to be invisible without the right viewing angle and lighting, but it may be worth considering. This shot of an early Martlet II is a good example...is it there? (Its R-1830-90 did not require the clearance of course. But later Mk II's and all Mk III's, with the same engine, have the separate blister.)

 

Hmmm... I am pretty certain that I bought #191 just when it came out (I did, ordered from Squadron in 2004 when usually I only went for their incredible bargains), but do not recall this photo (and do not recall to have ever seen it before, and I stared at quite a few Wildcat and especially Martlet (II) photos back in the day). I don't think there are many pics of Wildcats with unfaired gun through and blistered gun panel; and I am also not sure of ever having taken notice before of the two "ejectors" on the gills of the one in the background (but that's a batch 3  one I guess?). Looks like I'll have to dig out all my Wildcat stuff with notes etc. and re.acquaint myself! Do they have red-bordered stars'n'bars?

And the pic of 958 tells me I really have to get at that Martlet II stuff. As it's almost 20 years that I was in love a lot has been forgotten. I guess the Carb intake and domed prop substantiate the fact that the first 10 IIs actually were -3s. What I'd really ever wanted to know is  if that also applies to the wings - @Bruce Archer states so, and most likely the straight pitot right above says "that's true" - but I'd really prefer a non-folding 6-gun wing, for some reason 🙂

And @GiampieroSilvestri - I guess bringing up a topic at least remotely connected with Martlets will expose a huge amount of expertise - it looks like the Martlet is loved by quite a few people 😍

[tempestfan]

7 hours ago, detail is everything said:

I'm not sure where the carburettor air scoop was on the 86 engine using F4F-3 machines. 

That is a question I have been asking myself for some 20 years now. None of the publications I own says anything about this, or shows any pics IIRC. Obviously internally - but where and how? The same position would make sense, but then the pronounced cowling lip would "shade" the airflow from reaching the intake. Most likely the Grumman Historical Archives and Lois Lovisolo could have provided an answer if asked kindly. --- EDIT: OK, Lois retired in 2017. I have no idea which retirement age applies but I guess that would make her something like 70 to 72 years - hopefully she fully enjoys her retirement. I am not quite sure what happened to the Grumman archives after Northrop's incredibly wise decision that history is just looking backwards and it costs money without obvious/tangible benefits so should be put in a bin but don't think everything has been dumped. As @Dana Bell has started to cover the Wildcat, I am pretty sure he is in contact with her, so she may have some leads that help to resolve this topic.

Edited September 15, 2022 by tempestfan

[MDriskill]

Ha, you beat me to it...along with Dana Bell's book mentioned above and the Squadron Wildcat "Walk Around," "In Action" no. 191 is a really excellent (and economical) Wildcat reference. IMHO it has the most complete and accurate description of the cowling detail maze, also of armament and wing paneling variations.

 

The photo of 1845 is on the bottom right of p.13 of my copy. The odd blisters on the a/c in the background may be a one-off, I've never seen that anywhere else.

Edited September 15, 2022 by MDriskill

[ClaudioN]

10 hours ago, detail is everything said:

I assume most Martlet IIs going to the Indian Ocean via the Suez Canal  in 1942 for Operation Ironclad and back again for Operation Torch would have required some stores provision in Egypt and these would have been utilised by the resident Martlet IIIs to keep them going in North Africa and the subsequent move to East Africa.

Sorry, I may be nitpicking perhaps, but Martlet IIs did not go through the Suez Canal. All British carriers involved in Ironclad (Formidable and Illustrious carrying Martlets) went through the South Atlantic and the  Indian Ocean. For Pedestal, Indomitable went back in the other direction, from the Indian Ocean to Gibraltar and the Med via South Africa. No spares from Egypt. Later, Formidable went back to Britain in preparation for Torch via the same route and Illustrious did likewise.

Martlet IIIs flew from Egypt to Kenya in mid-1942 by flying up the Nile river valley. After the damaging of Formidable in May 1941, the Eastern Mediterranen did not see a RN carrier until 1944, I believe.

Edited September 16, 2022 by ClaudioN

[ClaudioN]

On 9/9/2022 at 5:37 PM, detail is everything said:

G36 F4F-3 (1st group)

P&W R-1830-76 Twin Wasp

2 stage 2 speed supercharger

Carburettor air scoop on cowling top

2 intercooler air scoops inside cowling 4&8 o’clock

Single cooling flap

 

On 9/9/2022 at 5:37 PM, detail is everything said:

F4F-3 (2nd group)

P&W R-1830-86 Twin Wasp

2 stage 2 speed supercharger

No carburettor air scoop on cowling top

2 intercooler air scoops inside cowling 4&8 o’clock

Single cooling flap

 

Assuming "2nd group" refers to the first 19 F4F-3 in the second US Navy contract (Bu.Nos. 3856-3874), not all sources agree on the engine variant. F4F Wildcat in Action, by Don Linn claims they still had the earlier variant, making a total of 100 aircraft with the R-1830-76. Profile no.53 by Frank L. Greene seems to agree with the latter and states that “approximately the first 100 F4F-3's had the -76 engine”.

From a purely logical viewpoint this seems more reasonable to me, i.e., the original but still slightly troublesome -76 in the first 100 aircraft, then 95 aircraft with the slightly less performing -90 as a stop-gap, the definitive -86, at last, on all the following production.

 

On 9/9/2022 at 6:48 PM, detail is everything said:

G36B (early) Martlet III(A) (British variant)

P&W R-1830-76 Twin Wasp

2 stage 2 speed supercharger

Carburettor air scoop on cowling top

2 intercooler air scoops inside cowling 4&8 o’clock

Single cooling flap

The first ten Martlet II/III had the same engine as the next 90 aircraft,  the Pratt & Whitney Twin Wasp S3C4-G (equivalent to the P&W R-1830-90), that was "supplied" (acquired and paid for) by the British. Comparison of side-view photos of the XF4F-6 (Bu. No. 7030) and the Martlet II/III (AM958) show they are virtually the same thing. This is why is use to think of the first 10 fixed-wing, four-gun G-36Bs as "pre-production F4F-3As".

 

 

16 hours ago, detail is everything said:

If some of the aircraft received new engines, It may be that the engine variant available would have been different to the original 90, they were delivered with.

16 hours ago, detail is everything said:

The folding wing Martlet IIs also used the 90 engine of the Greek Martlet IIIs but did not have cowling carburettor scoops.  So perhaps the Royal Navy did have plenty of 90 variant engines but ones which did not require the carburettor air scoop on the cowling top.  They would also have plenty of the Martlet II cowlings without the superfluous cowling scoop.

First time I come to think of it... The Fleet Air Arm had spare Pratt & Whitney Twin Wasp S3C4-G and cowlings for the Martlet II. An engine change on the ex-Greek F4F-3As, using FAA stores, might have meant replacement of the original R-1830-90 with the equivalent S3C4-G and the associated cowling. Again no proof, but sounds as a reasonably plain explanation to me. Note that aircraft retain the US Curtiss electric propeller with cuffed blades and no spinner cap.

[detail is everything]

19 hours ago, ClaudioN said:

but Martlet IIs did not go through the Suez Canal.

@ClaudioNThanks for the correction.  My bad.

 

Always happy to be corrected

 

I assume though that in March 1942, the 90 equivalent S3C4-G engine of the Martlet II and associated cowling without the cowling top carburettor air scoop would still have been the engine variant most likely available to the maintenance units when the 805 NAS machines went through their major overhaul incl. engine change and camouflage refresh. 

Edited September 16, 2022 by detail is everything

[detail is everything]

21 hours ago, tempestfan said:

That is a question I have been asking myself for some 20 years now. None of the publications I own says anything about this, or shows any pics IIRC. Obviously internally - but where and how? The same position would make sense, but then the pronounced cowling lip would "shade" the airflow from reaching the intake. Most likely the Grumman Historical Archives and Lois Lovisolo could have provided an answer if asked kindly. --- EDIT: OK, Lois retired in 2017. I have no idea which retirement age applies but I guess that would make her something like 70 to 72 years - hopefully she fully enjoys her retirement. I am not quite sure what happened to the Grumman archives after Northrop's incredibly wise decision that history is just looking backwards and it costs money without obvious/tangible benefits so should be put in a bin but don't think everything has been dumped. As @Dana Bell has started to cover the Wildcat, I am pretty sure he is in contact with her, so she may have some leads that help to resolve this topic.

@tempestfan I imagine the carburettor air scoop was inside the cowling ring at 12 o'clock as per the XF4F-3.  I imagine it would have been similar to  the intercooler scoops at the 4&8 o’clock.  @Dana Bells Aircraft Pictorial No. 4 may have pictures not found in Bert Kinzey's Detail and Scale Vol 7 that I don't have access to, which shows the internal carburettor air scoop.  I imaging the 

 

The later production F4F-3s and contemporary foldwing Martlet IIs were the only Twin Wasp powered F4Fs to have the internal carburettor scoops, The later Twin Wasp powered variants (F4F-4, F4F-7 and FM1) re-introduced the carburettor air scoop on the cowling top, so I guess the internal scoop was not a success?

Edited September 16, 2022 by detail is everything

[detail is everything]

On 9/16/2022 at 6:00 AM, ClaudioN said:

Assuming "2nd group" refers to the first 19 F4F-3 in the second US Navy contract (Bu.Nos. 3856-3874), not all sources agree on the engine variant. F4F Wildcat in Action, by Don Linn claims they still had the earlier variant, making a total of 100 aircraft with the R-1830-76. Profile no.53 by Frank L. Greene seems to agree with the latter and states that “approximately the first 100 F4F-3's had the -76 engine”.

From a purely logical viewpoint this seems more reasonable to me, i.e., the original but still slightly troublesome -76 in the first 100 aircraft, then 95 aircraft with the slightly less performing -90 as a stop-gap, the definitive -86, at last, on all the following production.

@ClaudioNThanks. Yes the "2nd group" refers to 19 F4F-3 BuNos 3856 to 3874.  I have to say I was working off the information provided in Bert Kinzey's Detail and Scale Vol 7 only, so I wasn't aware that other references disagree with it's findings.   

 

Bert Kinzey's book does not link the production groups to specific orders, but clearly states that 'the Pratt & Whitney R-1830-86 engine with a two stage two-speed supercharger was installed in these aircraft'.  It seems to me the 2nd group introduced the -86 engine but retained the unsatisfactory 1st group cooling and intercooler arrangement.  This was a very small single production batch and was quickly superseded by the first production batch of 88 3rd group aircraft  BuNos  3970 to 4057 with the increased number of cooling flaps and revised intercooler design.  A second production batch of 100 3rd group aircraft BuNos 12230 to 12329 were ordered over a year later in 1943 as stateside training aircraft and don't represent the frontline standard specification of the time, which I think would have been the F4F-4 and FM-1.

 

HOWEVER.....

 

Initial production machines - BuNos 1844 to 1845 (2) - for service testing

1st group - BuNos 1848 to 1896 (49) and 2512 to 2538 (27)

2nd group - BuNos 3856 to 3874 (19)

3rd group - BuNos  3970 to 4057 (88) and BuNos 12230 to 12329 (100)

 

Looking at the production order details above, we see

 

Contract 68219, 8 August 1939, for 78 F4F-3, P&W R1830-76, plus 1 X4F-4 with the same engine, 2 XF4F-5 with Wright R-1820-40 and 1 XF4F-6 with a furnished by contractor P&W R-1830-90
Contract 75736, 5 August 1940, for 107 F4F-3 with P&W R-1830-76/86 plus 95 F4F-3A with P&W R-1830-90 and 596 F4F-4 with P&W R-1830-86 and 21 F4F-7 with P&W R-1830-86
Contract 99340, 16 May 1942, for 573 F4F-4 with P&W R-1830-86 plus 2 XF4F-8 with Wright R-1820-56 and 100 F4F-3 with P&W R-1830-86/76.

 

So I conclude

 

Contract 68219, 8 August 1939 refers to the 1st two production aircraft plus the 1st group (49+27) - all using the -76 engine. 

Contract 75736, 5 August 1940 refers to the 19 2nd group plus the 88 1st production batch of the 3rd production group.  Note the 76/86 engine split, which suggests the 19 2nd group aircraft used the -76 engine and the 1st production batch of 88 3rd group aircraft used the -86 engine

Contract 99340, 16 May 1942 refers to the 2nd production batch of 100 3rd group aircraft which used the -86 engine.

 

This is probably why Don Linn and Frank L. Greene conclude that the 2nd production group was powered by the -76 engine.

 

However, what is ordered is not necessarily what is delivered and it would be interesting to know why Bert Kinzey concludes that the 2nd group used the -86 engine.  He may know something others don't.  It might be that at the time the 2nd order was made, it wasn't clear whether the F4F-3s concerned would be powered by the -76  or -86 engine, hence the 76/86?   

 

You will note that the last 100 F4F-3s are recorded as having 86/76 engines, though I would think they almost certainly used the then standard -86 engine.

 

Edited October 13, 2022 by detail is everything
typo

[MDriskill]

Random points:

 

There may a bit of confusion above as two different Squadron "In Action" titles on the Wildcat are being discussed. No. 84 by Don Linn was published in 1988; no. 191 by Richard Dann in 2004. They have quite different contents. Mr. Dann noted a lot of direct help from the Grumman history center, and no. 191 contains the best sorting out of Wildcat/Martlet variant differences that I am familiar with.

 

Page 17 of Mr. Bell's book has an excellent photo of the internal carb intake (quick reminder: the twin angled magnetos on the crankcase identify the R-1830-86. The -76 and -90 had a single magneto behind the cylinder banks).

 

After a couple hours re-studying my references, I agree the "formed bulge" did not exist on production aircraft (though obvious on the late XF4F-3 prototype, and development airframe no. 1845). Apologies for the wasted band width! 🙄 The lack of this bulge might, though, may indicate that the initial 2-stage engine, the R-1830-76 (or at least some early examples of it), had differences in the intercoolers?

 

As pointed out in Mr. Dann's book, the last 100 F4F-3's (nos. 12230 - 12329) were the final Wildcats constructed by Grumman. These trainers were carried over from earlier cancelled contracts (first for the F4F-7 long-range recce variant, then the F4F-3S floatplane). These came well after the last front-line F4F-3's (nos. 3970 - 4057), and their fuselage details match the F4F-4's alongside which they were built: unbraced windscreen side panels, lip intake, 4 pairs of cooling gills, etc. This wartime factory photo clearly shows all these features. Several aircraft from this batch have been recovered from Lake Michigan and restored by the way.

 

 

Edited September 17, 2022 by MDriskill

[detail is everything]

11 hours ago, ClaudioN said:

The first ten Martlet II/III had the same engine as the next 90 aircraft,  the Pratt & Whitney Twin Wasp S3C4-G (equivalent to the P&W R-1830-90), that was "supplied" (acquired and paid for) by the British. Comparison of side-view photos of the XF4F-6 (Bu. No. 7030) and the Martlet II/III (AM958) show they are virtually the same thing. This is why is use to think of the first 10 fixed-wing, four-gun G-36Bs as "pre-production F4F-3As".

@ClaudioN. Again, I've been working off Bert Kinzey's Detail and Scale Vol 7 and Bruce Archer's well known on line guide http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/wildcatfaaba_1.htm only, so apologies if this draws conclusions which differ from other resources.

 

It is Bruce Archer who says the 10 fixed wing G36Bs used the -76. 'These ex-Mk. IIs were powered by a Pratt and Whitney R-1830-76 Twin Wasp with a two-speed two-stage supercharger. 'Looking at Bert Kinzey's book, he says the 'first 10 Martlet IIs were built to F4F-3 standards.' but (unlike the remaining G36Bs) doesn't expressly state which engine variant they had.   

 

If we look at the G36B order which ended being split by 6 months whilst the folding wing was developed, I have the following features

 

G36B (early) Martlet III(A) (British variant)

P&W R-1830-76 (or -90 equivalent S3C4-G) Twin Wasp

2 stage (or 1 stage) 2 speed supercharger

Carburettor air scoop on cowling top

2 intercooler scoops inside cowling 4&8 o’clock (or not)

Single cooling flap

Fixed wing

4 guns – inner gun barrel extended

straight pitot tube

Curtiss Electric cuffed propeller

long, domed hub

Braced windscreen

 

I'd say if it used the -76 engine,, it's closest comparable USN variant was the 1st group of F4F-3s but with the braced windscreen of the 2nd group. If it had the -90 equivalent S3C4-G engine, it would be the F4F-3A

 

G36B (late) F4F-4A? Martlet II (British variant)

P&W R-1830-90 equivalent S3C4-G Twin Wasp

1 stage 2 speed supercharger

No carburettor air scoop on cowling top

No intercooler scoops inside cowling

Single cooling flap

Small tear shaped fairing between wing and cowling

Folding wing

6 guns -no extended gun barrels

Curtiss Electric cuffed propeller

long, domed hub

Braced windscreen

Initially small 7 shaped on top left wing,

later small L shaped pitot tube under left wing

later pneumatic tail wheel tyre

 

I'd say it's closest comparable USN variant was the F4F-3A but with the internal carburettor air scoop of late F4F-3s (not adopted by subsequent Twin Wasp variants) and the wings and armament of the F4F-4.

 

The G36B has a unique long, domed hub.  I do not know why it has this, rather than the F4F-3/3A stepped hub.

 

It would be far simpler if the G36 early had the equivalent engine of the F4F-3A.  It would make the G36 early and the F4F-3A almost the same machine bar the G36B hub and would make both groups of Martlet llls even more similar than I thought. 

 

The presence or not of the small tear shaped fairing between wing and cowling does not reflect the presence or need for it on Martlet llls, but probably that the nose panels were standardised with its presence by the time the F4F-3A and most of the G36B lates were being built.  The -76 engine used the original intercooler design which didn't need the small tear shaped fairing so the absence of the fairing does not mean the absence of an intercooler and therefore the -76 engine.

 

So is @Bruce Archer wrong?  He clearly states that the G36B early (first 10 machines) were powered by the -76 engine and the G36B late (remaining 90) were powered by the -90 engine.

 

Perhaps Bruce can tell us why he thinks the first 10 G36Bs were not powered by the -90 engine?

 

The cowling carburettor air scoop is not an indicator as these are present and absent on different -90 engine variants.  Nor is the presence or not of the small intercooler clearance faring between the wing and cowling, as these were present on variants using Twin Wasp engines with and without intercoolers.  However the presence of the 2 intercooler scoops inside cowling at 4&8 o’clock, would definitely indicate the presence of a two stage supercharger.  Find a picture of a G36B early with these and you have proof of a -76 or -86 engine

 

Looking at the post showing orders it says

 

Martlet II/F4F-3/G-36B, order A-1548, requisition 2/E1/40, P&W R-1830-S3C4-G.  AM954 to AM999 and AJ100 to AJ153, with AM954 to AM963 having fixed wings and later considered mark III, total 100. 

 

This would suggest all G36Bs were -90 equivalent S3C4-G engine powered.  Production wasn't stopped to await a different engine variant, But for the folding wings and extra guns.  Was there an advantage in dropping the 2 stage two speed supercharger of the -76 engine?  Perhaps the FAA decided it wasn't needed and it reduced maintenance burden.  The F4F-3 dropped the -76 engine but persisted with  the redesigned 2 stage two speed supercharger of the -86 engine, which was introduced with the final group of machines. 

 

The F4F-3A was only a back up if the 2 stage two speed supercharger failed and the F4F-4 and FM-1 retained the 2 stage two speed supercharger on their Twin Wasp engines when the fears of unreliability proved unfounded.  The USN obviously wanted the 2 stage two speed supercharger.

Edited September 16, 2022 by detail is everything

[ClaudioN]

Trying to summarize things with regards to F4F/G36 engines and variants in Fleet Air Arm Martlets, but perhaps we should be moving this discussion to a new thread, as it is getting farther and farther from the OP's question.

 

The US Navy used the following Pratt & Whitney engine variants: R-1830-76, R-1830-90, R-1830-86. No Wright engine until the FM-2, which had the R-1820-56.

Reportedly, the two-stage supercharged variants (R-1830-76 and R-1830-86) were not cleared for export, thus France and Britain had to seek alternative powerplants.

France opted for the Wright Cyclone G205A for the G-36A

 

Britain selected the Pratt & Whitney S3C4-G for the G-36B. This order was made before Lend-Lease and both airfarmes and engines were fully paid for by the UK. Of the first ten aircraft, AM954 first flew in October 1940, that is, more or less alongside the XF4F-6 prototype that the US Navy took on charge in November 1940 to test performances with the R-1830-90, that is, the very same engine, S3C4-G.

The remaining 9 British aircraft, AM955-AM963, were delivered by Grumman no later than March 1941, that is, in advance of any F4F-3A. The US were not at war at the time and I see no reason for providing a US military engine for a British aircraft. Furthermore, the two-stage supercharged R-1830 was still being developed from the -76 into the -86 version. I do not see the -76 being "dumped" upon the Royal Navy. In summary, I am afraid Bruce Archer was wrong on this point. I did discuss some aspects with him at the time he wrote his page, but not this one, of which we perhaps knew less then.

 

The Fleet Air Arm was looking for a high-performance fighter, I believe they would have gladly accepted the two-stage supercharged engines if the US had let them have it. As it was, the XF4F-6 was found to perform nearly as well as the F4F-3, which probably helped reassure the British.

 

For their next Martlet order, the Mk. IV, the Fleet Air Arm turned to the Wright Cyclone G.205A-3/G.251A, one the reasons being that the R-1830 was in strong demand, not only for the US Navy F4F but, above all, for the B-24 bomber. As has already been noted, the two-stage supercharged R-1830-86 did not come into service with Fleet Air Arm until the FM-1, that is, the Martlet V, arrived.

[ClaudioN]

On 9/16/2022 at 4:10 PM, detail is everything said:

It seems to me the 2nd group introduced the -86 engine but retained the unsatisfactory 1st group cooling and intercooler arrangement.  This was a very small single production batch and was quickly superseded by the first production batch of 88 3rd group aircraft  BuNos  3970 to 4057 with the increased number of cooling flaps and revised intercooler design.

Quite possible.

My own understanding was that

• the intercooler arrangement was a feature related to the engine: same arrangement, same variant. IMHO, -76 in the case of the first batch of 19 in the second contract
• as the Bu. No. sequence and the Grumman construction number sequence have the same progression, it may be assumed that the batch of 95 F4F-3A with the single-stage -90 were produced in between the two batches of 19 and 88 F4F-3s.

This is why a small batch of 19 still with the -76, following by an "insurance batch" of 95 aircraft with the -90, followed at last by the definitive -86 seemed reasonable to me. I emphasize, this is only my own guesswork.

Edited September 17, 2022 by ClaudioN

[GiampieroSilvestri]

Sorry if it is getting boring but I also just found this Hobbyboss 1/48 scale F4F-4 in my collection.

Is it correct to make a British Martlet MkIV.I read in one of the answers above they were F4F-4B but the kit only says F4F-4?I have an xtradecals sheet for Royal Navy Corsair,Tarpon,Martlets and Hellcats.If I will ever build them the F4F-3 will be in Greece and the F4F-4 in Royal Navy colours.

 

Thank you very much

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

 

[ClaudioN]

Conversion to a Martlet Mk. IV would require some major surgery because of the different engine, cowling, etc. A single-row, 9-cylinder Cyclone (for the F4F-4B) looks rather different from a twin-row, 14-cylinder Twin Wasp (for the F4F-4).

If Xtradecal X48102 is the sheet you refer to, Martlet Mk. II AJ148 for which decals are provided is something you can build from the F4F-4 with less effort.

[GiampieroSilvestri]

1 hour ago, ClaudioN said:

Conversion to a Martlet Mk. IV would require some major surgery because of the different engine, cowling, etc. A single-row, 9-cylinder Cyclone (for the F4F-4B) looks rather different from a twin-row, 14-cylinder Twin Wasp (for the F4F-4).

If Xtradecal X48102 is the sheet you refer to, Martlet Mk. II AJ148 for which decals are provided is something you can build from the F4F-4 with less effort.

Thank you very much for the answer.

Yes that is the decal sheet I have so AJ148 will probably be built.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

[detail is everything]

@ClaudioN and @MDriskill Thanks very much for your input regarding wildcat variants and their engines.  It just shows that relying on published references to establish fact is fraught with difficulty and often involves conflicting or erroneous advice.

 

The difficulty with engines is you can't always see obvious visual clues.  My only query now is whether the G36B (late) F4F-4A? Martlet II would have had the S3C4-G engine or whether this would have been superseded by the -90 variant by the time the wing fold Martlet II was built or whether the S3C4-G was built concurrently with the-90 engine for the British Martlet order

 

so in summary (items in bold different to that of the F4F-3

 

G36B (early) Martlet III(A) (British variant)

P&W R-1830-S3C4-G Twin Wasp

1 stage 2 speed supercharger

Carburettor air scoop on cowling top

No intercooler scoops inside cowling

Single cooling flap

Fixed wing

4 guns – inner gun barrel extended

Curtiss Electric cuffed propeller

long, domed hub

Braced windscreen

 

F4F-3A & Martlet III(B) (Greek variant)

P&W R-1830-90 Twin Wasp

1 stage 2 speed supercharger

Carburettor air scoop on cowling top

No intercooler scoops inside cowling

Single cooling flap

Small tear shaped fairing between wing and cowling

Fixed wing

4 guns – inner gun barrel extended

Curtiss Electric cuffed propeller

Stepped hub

Braced windscreen

 

G36B (late) F4F-4A? Martlet II (British variant)

P&W R-1830-S3C4-G Twin Wasp

1 stage 2 speed supercharger

No carburettor air scoop on cowling top

No intercooler scoops inside cowling

Single cooling flap

Small tear shaped fairing between wing and cowling

Folding wing

6 guns -no extended gun barrels

Curtiss Electric cuffed propeller

long, domed hub

Braced windscreen

Initially small 7 shaped pitot tube on top left wing,

later small L shaped pitot tube under left wing

later pneumatic tail wheel tyre

 

Thanks again

Edited September 20, 2022 by detail is everything

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

It should be pointed out that in construction number order the F4F/G-36 production is 54 F4F-3 (3 to experimental types), 27 F4F-3, 91 G-36, 19 F4F-3, 95 F4F-3A, 88 F4F-3, 41+20+212 F4F-4, 21 F4F-7, 10 G-36A (RN fixed wings Martlet mark II/III), 90 G-36B (Martlet II), 220 F4F-4B, 162+160+573 F4F-4, 2 XF4F-8, 100 F4F-3.

 

Acceptance order by month is very different, see below, the 21 F4F-7 acceptances over 9 months in 1942 are omitted as are the prototypes.

 

There is no real link between construction number and acceptance dates between the different versions except for the reversion from F4F-4 to F4F-3 and there are plenty of stories from non Wildact production about airframes waiting for key components like engines before acceptance.  If the 19 F4F-3 BuNo 3856 to 3874, C/N 738 to 756 did come off the production line before any F4F-3A they spent 2 or 3 months at Grumman before acceptance and the question then becomes why?

 

Acceptances
Month     \     G-36A     \     F4F-3
Jul-40     \     1
Aug-40     \     30     \     2
Sep-40     \     29
Oct-40     \     21

 

Month     \     F4F-3
Nov-40     \     1
Dec-40     \     19
Jan-41     \     31
Feb-41     \     25

 

Month     \     F4F-3     \     Martlet II/III     \     Martlet III     \     F4F-3A
Mar-41     \     0     \     10     \     30     \     15
Apr-41     \     0     \     0     \     0     \     17
May-41     \     3     \     0     \     0     \     33

 

Month     \     F4F-3     \     Martlet II/III
Jun-41     \     28     \     1
Jul-41     \     32
Aug-41     \     29     \     2
Sep-41     \     15     \     3
Oct-41     \     0     \     6

 

Month     \     Martlet II/III     \     F4F-4     \     F4F-4B
Nov-41     \     14     \     1
Dec-41     \     24     \     4
Jan-42     \     0     \     62
Feb-42     \     1     \     79     \     1
Mar-42     \     33     \     56
Apr-42     \     6     \     92
 

Month     \     F4F-4     \     F4F-4B

May-42     \     105
Jun-42     \     119     \     10
Jul-42     \     62     \     36
Aug-42     \     43     \     90
Sep-42     \     77     \     43
Oct-42     \     132     \     28
Nov-42     \     176     \     12
Dec-42     \     161     \     

 

Month     \     F4F-3
Jan-43     \     21
Feb-43     \     16
Mar-43     \     24
Apr-43     \     24
May-43     \     15

[detail is everything]

50 minutes ago, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

It should be pointed out that in construction number order the F4F/G-36 production is 54 F4F-3 (3 to experimental types), 27 F4F-3, 91 G-36, 19 F4F-3, 95 F4F-3A, 88 F4F-3, 41+20+212 F4F-4, 21 F4F-7, 10 G-36A (RN fixed wings Martlet mark II/III), 90 G-36B (Martlet II), 220 F4F-4B, 162+160+573 F4F-4, 2 XF4F-8, 100 F4F-3.

 

Acceptance order by month is very different, see below, the 21 F4F-7 acceptances over 9 months in 1942 are omitted as are the prototypes.

 

There is no real link between construction number and acceptance dates between the different versions except for the reversion from F4F-4 to F4F-3 and there are plenty of stories from non Wildact production about airframes waiting for key components like engines before acceptance.  If the 19 F4F-3 BuNo 3856 to 3874, C/N 738 to 756 did come off the production line before any F4F-3A they spent 2 or 3 months at Grumman before acceptance and the question then becomes why?

 

Acceptances
Month     \     G-36A     \     F4F-3
Jul-40     \     1
Aug-40     \     30     \     2
Sep-40     \     29
Oct-40     \     21

 

Month     \     F4F-3
Nov-40     \     1
Dec-40     \     19
Jan-41     \     31
Feb-41     \     25

 

Month     \     F4F-3     \     Martlet II/III     \     Martlet III     \     F4F-3A
Mar-41     \     0     \     10     \     30     \     15
Apr-41     \     0     \     0     \     0     \     17
May-41     \     3     \     0     \     0     \     33

 

Month     \     F4F-3     \     Martlet II/III
Jun-41     \     28     \     1
Jul-41     \     32
Aug-41     \     29     \     2
Sep-41     \     15     \     3
Oct-41     \     0     \     6

 

Month     \     Martlet II/III     \     F4F-4     \     F4F-4B
Nov-41     \     14     \     1
Dec-41     \     24     \     4
Jan-42     \     0     \     62
Feb-42     \     1     \     79     \     1
Mar-42     \     33     \     56
Apr-42     \     6     \     92
 

Month     \     F4F-4     \     F4F-4B

May-42     \     105
Jun-42     \     119     \     10
Jul-42     \     62     \     36
Aug-42     \     43     \     90
Sep-42     \     77     \     43
Oct-42     \     132     \     28
Nov-42     \     176     \     12
Dec-42     \     161     \     

 

Month     \     F4F-3
Jan-43     \     21
Feb-43     \     16
Mar-43     \     24
Apr-43     \     24
May-43     \     15

Sorry, I should have thanked you and the other conservation participants as well

[MDriskill]

Giampiero, this is not the place to get into the details, but the desire for FAA colors on your F4F-4 - which I understand very well! 😀 - is not too hard to achieve. The "dash 4" can be converted to a Martlet Mk II or Mk V with relatively minor changes (mostly to the cowl/engine for the Mk II, and wing gun paneling for the Mk V).

 

As noted above, the Martlet IV, with the misleading US Navy "F4F-4B" designation, is quite a different aircraft. It has many subtle differences forward of the firewall to accommodate its single-row Wright Cyclone engine.

Edited September 23, 2022 by MDriskill

[ClaudioN]

I suggest we open a new thead, kind of "All the Wildcat/Martlet questions you wanted to ask", as our interesting discussion is spreading much wider than "Grumman F4F-3 colours". The early production history of the F4F can be fascinantingly intricated.

 

Claudio

[EwenS]

On 15/09/2022 at 22:20, ClaudioN said:

 

After the damaging of Formidable in May 1941, the Eastern Mediterranen did not see a RN carrier until 1944, I believe.

 

Not quite.

 

Ahead of Operation Husky, the invasion of Sicily, Formidable, along with Warspite and Valiant and escorts, travelled from the western Med to Alexandria to provide an escort for the invasion convoys that left Alexandria for the beaches on 7th July 1943, eventually linking up with the rest of the fleet a couple of days later. She also had a quick dry docking there in Aug 1943 between Operations Husky & Avalanche.

 

The escort carrier Battler with 834 Swordfish/Seafire squadron joined the escort of convoy KMF24 off Gibraltar in Sept 1943, after Avalanche, while en route to the Port Said, the Suez Canal and the Indian Ocean.

 

The next was probably Illustrious in the first few days of 1944 while en route to the IO.