Grumman F4F-3 colours

[GiampieroSilvestri]

What colour would a Helleniki aeroporia Wildcat have had.I saw drawings showing one in a camouflage scheme similar to British FAA aircraft and one in aluminium overall.I have a Hobbyboss 1/48 scale kit and if I will ever build it I thought to make a greek aircraft.

 

Thank you very much

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

[gingerbob]

If you're speaking of the actual batch that ended up with the Brits, standard USN light grey.

[ClaudioN]

Somewhere, maybe in a Greek modelling magazine, the prototype Grumman G-36B in British FAA camouflage, but with roundels and fin flash masked over, was mistaken for an F4F-3 with Greek roundels. I believe this is the origin of the elusive "camouflaged Greek F4F".

As @gingerbob said, the actual batch arrived in Egypt finished in the then standard USN "neutrality grey" (that might perhaps be mistaken for aluminium?) with USN Bu.Nos. in black.

I have no idea whether those aircraft ever carried any roundel or national markings other than the British ones.

[Bruce Archer]

Hi All!

    The Greek F4F-3As were contracted to be delivered in the then standard USN scheme of overall Non-Specular Light Grey. The BuAer number and type were located on the fin in black as per USN standards. When they arrived in Egypt, they were erected, the national markings were applied and the BuAer numbers were relocated to the rear fuselage with "Royal Navy" above. The Martlets were assigned local serials later. and camouflage colors were also added at a later date.

    Check my article ( fhttp://www.clubhyper.com/reference/wildcatfaaba_1.htm )or the BuAer and FAA serial cross reference.

 

Bruce

[Casey]

1 hour ago, Bruce Archer said:

Non-Specular Light Grey

Was it same as ANA602 - Light Grey ?

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

 

22 hours ago, Bruce Archer said:

 Check my article ( fhttp://www.clubhyper.com/reference/wildcatfaaba_1.htm )or the BuAer and FAA serial cross reference.

Pulling everything together, notes from RAF contract cards and USN record of acceptances.  There are some disagreements with the web site’s Martlet article.

 

Martlet I ex French order F-292, requisition 2/E1/40 for 95 mark I (14 mark III serials reported as mark I, AX725 to 38) Wright GR-1820-G205A-2, the 81 Martlet I serials were AL236-AL262 (At RNAS Donibristle November and December 1940) , AX824-AX829 (at Scottish Aviation August 1940), BJ507-BJ527 (At Scottish Aviation September 1940 on) and BJ554-BJ570 while BT447-BT456 were allocated to the 10 lost at sea.  AL231 to 235 cancelled, replaced by AX824 to 829, so 5 cancelled, 6 replacements.

 

Martlet II/F4F-3/G-36B, order A-1548, requisition 2/E1/40, P&W R-1830-S3C4G.  AM954 to AM999 and AJ100 to AJ153, with AM954 to AM963 having fixed wings and later considered mark III, total 100.  Contract cards have AM954, AJ107, 109 listed as lost at sea while AJ110 and 111 look like they share the fate of AJ109.

 

A photograph of AM958 suggests it was not fitted with R-1830-76 but with single stage version R-1830-90 as it lacks the small bulge covering near the wing leading edge for the intercoolers.  USN order 68219 F4F-3 production ended in February 1941, with the R-1830-76, order 75736 F4F-3A production March to May 1941 with the R-1830-90, F4F-3 production from May 1941 with the R-1830-76 or 86.  Martlet II Order, 10 in March 1941 (became mark III), then June on, engine R-1830-S3C4G. So were the first 10 of the Martlet II order F4F-3A or a hybrid with fixed wings and the P&W R-1830-76, -86 or S3C4G?

 

F4F-3A/Martlet III, Diversion from USN order 75736, requisition BSC.1465, P&W R-1830-90, AX724 to AX747, AX753 to AX754, AX761 and HK840 to HK842, total 30.  Originally for Greece.  AX725 to AX738 incorrectly listed as mark I in RAF Contract Card summary making the mark I order 95.  AX741 to 747 and AX761 have RAF Serial Register entries.  The import report has 27 Wildcat arriving in the Middle East in July 1941 and 3 more in October.

 

Martlet IV/Wildcat IV/F4F-4B, order LL-83734, requisition BSC.154 for 150, requisition BSC.7207 for 70, total 220. Wright R-1820-G205A furnished by Britain, given the bottleneck engine supply was at the time it suggests the engines were available from a British engine order, saving on R-1830, plus providing compatibility for the Martlet I.  Serials FN100 to FN319 with FN205 to 207, FN240 and FN241 lost at sea.

 

Wildcat V/FM-1,from USN order 99036, requisition BSC N.4, P&W R-1830-86, the USN reports 311 accepted for RN as JV325 to JV636, which is 312 serials, BuNo. 15415/JV428 reported delivered to USN, then in 1943 to Britain.  JV325 to 414 did not have USN BuNo. 

 

Wildcat VI/FM-2 from USN order NOa(s)-227 (99036), requisition BSC N.4, Wright R-1820-56/72W in 1943, -72W in 1944, -56W in 1945, serials JV637 to JV924 and JW785 to 836, total 340.  The USN reports 98+242 = 340 FM-2 accepted for RN, indicating serials JZ860 to 899 were not used.  FM-2 acceptances for Britain ceased in May 1945, which is 3 months before FM-2 production ended.

 

USN orders,

Contract 46973, 2 March 1936 became 63072, 3 October 1938, for 1 XF4F-3 (ex XF4F-1 and XF4F-2) P&W XR-1830-76
Contract 68219, 8 August 1939, for 78 F4F-3, P&W R1830-76, plus 1 X4F-4 with the same engine, 2 XF4F-5 with Wright R-1820-40 and 1 XF4F-6 with a furnished by contractor P&W R-1830-90
Contract 75736, 5 August 1940, for 107 F4F-3 with P&W R-1830-76/86 plus 95 F4F-3A with P&W R-1830-90 and 596 F4F-4 with P&W R-1830-86 and 21 F4F-7 with P&W R-1830-86
Contract 99340, 16 May 1942, for 573 F4F-4 with P&W R-1830-86 plus 2 XF4F-8 with Wright R-1820-56 and 100 F4F-3 with P&W R-1830-86/76.
Contract 99036, 18 April 1942, for 1,150 FM-1 (311 for RN) with P&W R-1830-86
Contract NOa(s)-227 (99036), 31 December 1943, for 4,100 FM-2 (340 for RN) plus another 1,423 in 1945 of which 746 were cancelled, with Wright R-1820-56/72W in 1943, -72W only in 1944, -56W in 1945, a total of 4,777 built.

Contract NOas-1662, N.A.M. 1107 for 3 XF2M-1 dated 31 October 1944, cancelled.

 

Martlet I production July to October 1940, F4F-3 production 2 in August 1940, then November 1940 to February 1941, May to December 1941, February to March 1942, January to May 1943, F4F-3A production March to May 1941.  F4F-4 production November 1941 to December 1942, F4F-7 production January, March, May to September, November and December 1942.  FM-1 production September 1942 to December 1943.  FM-2 production September 1943 to August 1945. Total production  7,905.

 

From USN Aircraft performance charts, propellers

F4F-3, F4F-7 Curtiss Elec. CS 3 Blade 9 ft 9 in, Blade Design No. 512

F4F-4, FM-1 Curtiss Elec. CS 3 Bl. 9 ft 9 in, Blade. Design No. 512-ICL-5-15

FM-2, Curtiss electric CS 3 blade 10 foot, blade design No. 109354-12

Admiralty Fleet Order 3186/1943

Martlet I and IV Aircraft Types of Engines Fitted. A.M.R. 2498/43. - 15 July 1943.

Some confusion may at present exist concerning the types of Cyclone engines which can be fitted in Martlet I and IV, due to the large variety of type numbers which may be found stamped on the engine date plates.

2 (a) Engines suitable for the Martlet I : Cyclone G.205A, Cyclone G.205A-2

2 (b) Engines suitable for the Martlet IV : Cyclone G.205A-3, Cyclone G.251A, Cyclone R.1820-40B

3 Apart from minor differences between the engines listed in 2(a) and 2 (b) above, such as ignition harness elbows, tachometer drives etc., the main difference is that 2(a) are fitted with 3 jaw starter shaft dog suitable for an electric-inertia starter, while 2(b) are fitted with a 12 jaw starter shaft dog suitable for a cartridge starter.

4. Engines shown within groups 2(a) and 2(b) respectively are interchangeable with other engines shown in the same group.

5. All engines shown in group 2(b) are fitted with an external oil scavenge line running from the oil pump at the rear of the engine to the sump at the front of the engine.  Engines in group 2(a) were not originally fitted with this external scavenge line, but are being fitted on overhaul by the incorporation of Mod. Cyclone/45 so that this line alone may NOT be taken as a criterion by which to identify Martlet IV engines.

[Bruce Archer]

1 hour ago, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

 

 

It will take me a while to go through the above post. However, AM954 to AM963 ( 10 aircraft in total) were built as F4F-3s, with fixed wings. As they were closer to the ex-Greek order of F4F-3As, these were redesignated Martlet III. The remainder of AM serialed (AM964 to AM 999) and AJ serialed ( AJ100 to AJ153) were built with 6-gun folding wings with a two-speed single-stage Twin Wasp engine and were NOT F4F-3 or F4F-3A aircraft (Grumman called these F4F-4A aircraft). The AM serialed aircraft had the unique above wing pitot, AJ serialed MArtlets had the "standard" F4F-4 style Pitot.

 

My records show only approx. 11 AM/AJ Marlets were lost at sea.

 

The Martlet I, G-36 deliveries were  formed from French and Belgian orders

 

There are images of Intercooled F4F-3s without the bulge. The whole series of F4F-3 Wildcats have oddities within the series.

 

The reason I wrote the article was the confusion with serials, type, and fuselage length in front of the wing.

[ClaudioN]

11 hours ago, Bruce Archer said:

and Belgian orders

There was no Belgian order. This is probably confused with the Brewster B-339B (where B = Belgium - the British ones were B-339E).

Edited September 9, 2022 by ClaudioN
post by @jimmaas

[jimmaas]

1 hour ago, ClaudioN said:

This is probably confused with the Brewster B-339B (where B = Belgium - the British ones were B-339E).

Although that's a handy way to identify, it is not correct.  Researcher George Inger found Brewster documentation that the Belgian order were originally given the export designation 339A;  it was subsequently changed to 339B.  The Netherlands East Indies designations, depending on engine, were 339C and 339D, and the British order became 339E.  

[ClaudioN]

On 9/8/2022 at 4:07 PM, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

Contract 46973, 2 March 1936 became 63072, 3 October 1938, for 1 XF4F-3 (ex XF4F-1 and XF4F-2) P&W XR-1830-76
Contract 68219, 8 August 1939, for 78 F4F-3, P&W R1830-76, plus 1 X4F-4 with the same engine, 2 XF4F-5 with Wright R-1820-40 and 1 XF4F-6 with a furnished by contractor P&W R-1830-90
Contract 75736, 5 August 1940, for 107 F4F-3 with P&W R-1830-76/86 plus 95 F4F-3A with P&W R-1830-90 and 596 F4F-4 with P&W R-1830-86 and 21 F4F-7 with P&W R-1830-86
Contract 99340, 16 May 1942, for 573 F4F-4 with P&W R-1830-86 plus 2 XF4F-8 with Wright R-1820-56 and 100 F4F-3 with P&W R-1830-86/76.

Prototype (contract 46973): 1 aircraft (Bu.No. 0383)

 

 

First order (contract 68219): 81 aircraft - first batch: 54 (Bu.Nos. 1844-1897), second batch: 27 (Bu.Nos. 2512-2538) - all F4F-3, amended to provide 2 XF4F-5 (Bu.Nos. 1846-1847) and 1 XF4F-4 (Bu.No. 1897)

Second order (contract 75736): 243 aircraft (Bu.Nos. 3856-4098), after 1940 Naval Expansion Act - initially all F4F-3, contract subsequently amended to 19 F4F-3, 95 F4F-3A, 88 F4F-3, 41 F4F-4

Single order (when?): 1 aircraft (Bu.No. 7031), XF4F-6

(Note: pre-war USN orders appear to have been in multiples of 27 aircraft. This would correspond to the complement of a fighter squadron (18) plus 50% reserves (9)).

 

Three orders are missing from your list additions to contract 75736 (Geoffrey Sinclair):

One pre-war order: 254 aircraft (Bu.Nos. 5030-5283), initially 233 F4F-3, amended to 232 F4F-4, 1 G-53 and 21 F4F-7 reconnaissance variants

Another pre-war order: 162 aircraft (Bu.Nos. 01991-02152), all F4F-4 - this order was reportedly placed on 23 June 1941, at the same time that previous orders for F4F-3 were amended to F4F-4

Yet another pre-war order: 160 aircraft (Bu. Nos. 03385-03544) - all F4F-4 - order placed 28 July 1941

Final order (contract 99340): 675 aircraft (Bu.Nos. 11655-12229), 573 F4F-4 (Bu. Nos. 11655 to 12227), 2 XF4F-8s (Bu. Nos. 12228-12229), 100 F4F-3s (Bu. Nos. 12230-12329).

Before the Pacific war began, US Navy orders stood at 902 aircraft: 1 XF4F-3, 185 F4F-3, 95 F4F-3A, 1 XF4F-4, 595 F4F-4, 2 XF4F-5, 1 XF4F-6, 21 F4F-7, 1 G-53, of which 30 F4F-3A were diverted to Greece. By December 1941 less than 250 F4F-3 were in service with the US Navy and US Marines.

By comparison, British aircraft orders comprised: 81 G-36A (Martlet I), 10 fixed-wing G-36B (Martlet III), 90 folding-wing G-36B (Martlet ii), 150 (increased to 220) F4F-4B (Martlet IV), a total of 401 aircraft, to which 30 F4F-3A (Martlet III) originally destined for Greece were added. By December 1941 nearly 130 had been received (10 of which were lost at sea).

Edited September 9, 2022 by ClaudioN
Amended after information from Geoffrey Sinclair

[ClaudioN]

13 hours ago, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

Martlet I ex French order F-292, requisition 2/E1/40 for 95 mark I (14 mark III serials reported as mark I, AX725 to 38) Wright GR-1820-G205A-2

Thank you for this. So, this is where the mix-up of serials comes from (see Air Britain "FAA Aircraft 1939-1945).

 

13 hours ago, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

So were the first 10 of the Martlet II order F4F-3A or a hybrid with fixed wings and the P&W R-1830-76, -86 or S3C4G?

AFAIK, S3C4G was the manufacturer designation for the the P&W R-1830-90. As you remark, AM958 shows no trace of the bulge associated with the intercooler in the -76 and -86 engine variants, which was absent from the XF4F-6 prototype as well. We might perhaps describe the first 10 Martlets IIs as pre-production F4F-3As.

 

Is there any known reference regarding dates for the French and British orders (F-292 and A-1548), or for the requisition 2/E1/40?

[gingerbob]

1 May and 24 July respectively for the contracts (according to the book about Lend-Lease).

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Thanks for the review and extra details, I quoted what the USN orders ended up as given the topic was the Martlet. I do not think I missed any.

 

Contract 46973, 2 March 1936 became 63072, 3 October 1938, for 1 XF4F-3 (ex XF4F-1 and XF4F-2) P&W XR-1830-76.  Notes: Carrier - Low wing monocoque - Replaces XF4F-1 design.  Returned to contractors works for modification from XF4F-2 to XF4F-3 on August 1938.  Delivered Anacostia April 1939 for trials as XF4F-3 C-63072.  Returned to contractors works June 1939.  Finally accepted August 1939.

 

Contract 68219, 8 August 1939, for 78 F4F-3, P&W R1830-76, plus 1 X4F-4 with the same engine, 2 XF4F-5 with Wright R-1820-40 and 1 XF4F-6 with a furnished by contractor P&W R-1830-90.  According to the USN record of acceptances 68219 consisted of 54 F4F-3 plus 1 XF4F-6 (Though its entry is dated 20 November 1940, versus 8 August 1939 for the F4F-3), 27 F4F-3 added, 3 cancelled, 1 XF4F-4 and 2 XF4F-5 added.

 

Contract 75736, 5 August 1940, for 107 F4F-3 with P&W R-1830-76/86 plus 95 F4F-3A with P&W R-1830-90 and 596 F4F-4 with P&W R-1830-86 and 21 F4F-7 with P&W R-1830-86.  Mathematics first, USN record of acceptances, contract for 67 F4F-3, 95 F4F-3A and 335 F4F-4.  Notes:
F4F-3, initially 67 with 40 added, Originally 243 F4F-4 contracted for, extended for 254 additional F4F-3, -3A and -4.
F4F-3A, initially 95 with 30 cancelled (actually "Diverted to Greece, not included in Navy totals"), Originally 80 F4F-3A and 15 F4F-4A.  Similar to British Martlet III.  Carrier development of F4F-3.
F4F-4 to the original 335 there were 162 additions and 40 cancellations, then 160 additions and 21 cancellations.  Quantity reduced by 40 to be delivered as F4F-3, increased by supplemental contract to include 162 additional 23 June 1941, 21 diverted to F4F-7, increased by second supplementary contract to include 160 additional 28 July 1941.  Carrier.  Development of XF4F-4. Manually operated folding wings.  No floatation.

F4F-7 21 added to order.

 

The above from the 1942 notes, the 1943 F4F-4 notes, originally 243 F4F-4 contracted for; extended for 254 additional F4F-3, -3A, -4.  95 diverted to F4F-3A and 67 to F4F-3.  From total of 335, 40 were diverted to be delivered as F4F-3; 162 were added by supplemental contract 23 June 1941; 21 were diverted to F4F-7; 160 were added by a second supplementary contract 28 July 1942.

 

Contract 99340, 16 May 1942, for 573 F4F-4 with P&W R-1830-86 plus 2 XF4F-8 with Wright R-1820-56 and 100 F4F-3 with P&W R-1830-86/76.  Mathematics, 575 F4F-4 ordered, 2 cancelled, 2 XF4F-8 added, 100 F4F-3.  Notes on F4F-3 These planes were changed from F4F-7 to F4F-3.  Manufactured as landplanes, converted to F4F-3 (seaplane) by service personnel.

[detail is everything]

On 9/8/2022 at 4:54 PM, Bruce Archer said:

There are images of Intercooled F4F-3s without the bulge. The whole series of F4F-3 Wildcats have oddities within the series.

According to Detail and Scale Vol 7, there were three production groups which differed from each other as follows (differences in bold)

 

G36 F4F-3 (1st group)

P&W R-1830-76 Twin Wasp

2 stage 2 speed supercharger

Carburettor air scoop on cowling top

2 intercooler air scoops inside cowling 4&8 o’clock

Single cooling flap

Fixed wing

Telescopic gunsight (later replaced)

4 guns – inner gun barrel extended beyond wing leading edge

Curtiss Electric cuffed propeller

Stepped hub

 

F4F-3 (2nd group)

P&W R-1830-86 Twin Wasp

2 stage 2 speed supercharger

No carburettor air scoop on cowling top

2 intercooler air scoops inside cowling 4&8 o’clock

Single cooling flap

Fixed wing

Reflector gun sight

4 guns – inner gun barrel extended beyond wing leading edge

Curtiss Electric cuffed propeller

Stepped hub

Braced windscreen

 

F4F-3 (3rd group)

P&W R-1830-86 Twin Wasp

2 stage 2 speed supercharger

No carburettor air scoop on cowling top

2 intercooler air scoops inside cowling 4&8 o’clock

3 + 1 cooling flaps

Small tear shaped bulge between wing and cowling

Fixed wing

Reflector gun sight

4 guns – inner gun barrel extended beyond wing leading edge

Curtiss Electric cuffed propeller

Stepped hub

Braced windscreen

 

The extra flap area of 3rd group machines solved the engine overheating issues and the small tear shaped bulge between wing and cowling indicated the introduction of a redesigned intercooler.  The tear shaped bulge between wing and cowling was required to clear a joint flange of the redesigned intercooler.

 

The later variants which used the 86 engine (F4F-4, F4F-7 and FM1) re-introduced the carburettor air scoop on the cowling top.  I'm not sure where the carburettor air scoop was on the 86 engine using F4F-3 machines.

Edited September 12, 2022 by detail is everything
Apologies- error spotted. F4F-4B didn't use Twin Wasp, but F4F-7 did

[ClaudioN]

To bring our discussion back to the OP query and my first post in this thread, here is a link to the photo that, IMHO, started the tale of a Greek camouflaged F4F:

NX26874

I believe this is in fact AM954, with British national markings masked over and using US civil registration NX26874 for a test flight. I was unable to find out about this particular NX registration. The first G-36As for the French/British order were civil registered NX-G1 to NX-G7.

Edited September 9, 2022 by ClaudioN

[detail is everything]

On 9/8/2022 at 3:07 PM, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

So were the first 10 of the Martlet II order F4F-3A or a hybrid with fixed wings and the P&W R-1830-76, -86 or S3C4G?

As Bruce alludes to, the first 10 Martlet IIs were nearer the spec of the Greek ordered F4F-4A/Martlet III than the rest of the Martlet II order, delayed to take advantage of the new folding wing being developed by Grumman at the time.  To differentiate between the two sub-variants, some publications refer to the Greek ordered machines taken by the Fleet Air Arm as Martlet III(B)s and the first 10 Martlet IIs as III(A)s, though the FAA just referred to both groups as IIIs.

 

The main features of the two Martlet III groups are as follows

 

G36B (early) Martlet III(A) (British variant)

P&W R-1830-76 Twin Wasp

2 stage 2 speed supercharger

Carburettor air scoop on cowling top

2 intercooler air scoops inside cowling 4&8 o’clock

Single cooling flap

Fixed wing

4 guns – inner gun barrel extended beyond wing leading edge

Curtiss Electric cuffed propeller

long, domed hub

Braced windscreen

 

The propeller hub and braced windscreen are the visual differences between the British specific G36B (early) and the USN specific G36 F4F-3 (1st group).

 

F4F-3A & Martlet III(B) (Greek variant)

P&W R-1830-90 Twin Wasp

1 stage 2 speed supercharger

Carburettor air scoop on cowling top

No intercooler air scoops inside cowling

Single cooling flap

Small tear shaped bulge between wing and cowling

Fixed wing

4 guns – inner gun barrel extended extended beyond wing leading edge

Curtiss Electric cuffed propeller

Stepped hub

Braced windscreen

 

The engine variant with its single stage supercharger and braced windscreen are the only significant differences between the Greek/USN specific F4F-3A and the USN specific F4F-3 (1st group). 

 

So looking at F4F-3 and F4F-3A machines, the key visual differences are;  

 

F4F-3 (1st group)  -  carburettor air scoop on cowling top - Single cooling flap

F4F-3 (2nd group) -                                                             - Single cooling flap - braced windscreen

F4F-3 (3rd group) -                                                              - 3 + 1 cooling flaps - braced windscreen  - tear shaped bulge between wing and cowling

F4F -3A                 -  carburettor air scoop on cowling top - Single cooling flap - braced windscreen  - tear shaped bulge between wing and cowling

 

When comparing the two Martlet III sub-variants, the most obvious visual difference is the propeller hub and presence or not of the small tear shaped bulge between wing and cowling. The key internal difference was the type of supercharger (and therefore the presence or not of an intercooler), which meant that the Greek variant's performance would not have been as good at higher altitudes.  However I think the FAA would not have worried about this as most action would be at lower altitudes (hence no need for a Spitfire MK.IX equivalent Seafire).

 

I believe the 90 Twin Wasp variant with its single stage supercharger was developed amid concerns about the complexity and thus reliability of the 76s two stage supercharger and its associated intercooler.  

 

Why the Twin Wasp single stage supercharger F4F-3A had the small tear shaped bulge between wing and cowling (required to clear an intercooler joint flange), despite not having an intercooler is a bit odd, but might indicate the standardisation of Twin Wasp variant panels in production.  This also applies to the Twin Wasp single stage supercharger G36B (late) Martlet II, though the topic... 

 

 

would indicate this standardisation did not occur immediately and some Martlet IIs were delivered without the superfluous small intercooler bulges

Edited September 12, 2022 by detail is everything
clarified differences between F4F-3 and F4F-3A machines

[MDriskill]

This old Wildcat fan instantly bookmarked this thread! Thanks to all for the research.

 

Now, this excellent album of private photos from "Crumple Zone," recently discussed at HyperScale, contains many fascinating images of FAA aircraft - Skuas, Martlets, Corsairs, and a smattering of many other types:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/billchilton/albums/72157623826178790/with/4508311635/

 

Most relevant to this discussion are several fine shots of Martlet III's in the desert (most on p.2 of the album). Several show something new to me: Martlet III's without the carburetor intake in the upper cowl lip. These pics of AX 744 and HK 842 are good examples, but there are several others as well.

 

 

Edited September 14, 2022 by MDriskill

[MDriskill]

And here is a wrinkle (literally) that may (or may not) be relevant here.

 

This photo shows Bu. No. 1845, the second F4F-3 to be built. The clearance for the intercooler flange of its R-1830-76 engine is not the separate blister seen on later aircraft, but a subtle bulge formed integrally with the panel. Compare to the later "dash 3" in the background:

 

 

 

Is it possible that some early Wildcats which appear to lack the intercooler bump, in fact have this earlier version? I'm still scratching my head on it...I honestly don't know, as it's so subtle as to be invisible without the right viewing angle and lighting, but it may be worth considering. This shot of an early Martlet II is a good example...is it there? (Its R-1830-90 did not require the clearance of course. But later Mk II's and all Mk III's, with the same engine, have the separate blister.)

 

Edited September 14, 2022 by MDriskill

[detail is everything]

Thanks @MDriskill. I'd looked at the "Crumple Zone," photos several times, but not clocked the lack of cowling carburettor scoops on some machines!  Looking at the features of the aircraft concerned, they all appear to be Twin Wasp fixed wing variants with the stepped prop hub and straight pitot tube, Besides, the serials which can be identified are those assigned to the ex Greek machines - so no alternative Martlet variant interlopers. 

 

The camouflage of the aircraft concerned is discussed at length in the topic 

 

It refers to the comments made by Don Nairn in his autobiography book 'Gold Wings and Webbed Feet' (Invercargill, New Zealand: 1996). Nairn served with 805 Squadron from December 1941 until January 1943 in both North and East Africa.

 

The ex-Greek F4F-3A aircraft were taken on charge by the Royal Navy at the very end of April 1941 and most seem to have been issued to 805 Squadron in June (after re-assembly). The change to AX serials from the original Bureau numbers appears to have taken place in August 1941. Nairn dates the application of the camouflage scheme he specified to the very end of March or very early April 1942 (it apparently depended upon when aircraft had to undergo major overhauls). 805 Squadron went to East Africa in August 1942 and exchanged its Martlet III aircraft for Martlet IV machines (Nairn specifically notes that these had Wright Cyclones and folding wings) in October 1942. Therefore, 805 Squadron operated Martlet III's for 14-15 months at the very most.

 

Nairn states that, from mid-March 1942, 805 Squadron was tasked primarily with convoy protection. Consequently, during a major overhaul at the end of the month (the aircraft received, amongst other things, new engines and “improved” self-sealing fuel lines that had to be removed because they caused fuel flow problems) “the maintenance boys had also spruced up the sandblasted paintwork with a new over-water camouflage design – a mixture of sea green and blue patterns.” (p.78) What was this scheme? Was it Nairn’s interpretation, 50 years later, of Dark Slate Grey and Extra Dark Sea Grey, or was it the application of one of the Tropical Sea Schemes? Any additional information will be much appreciated. It is possible he misremembered but Nairn was describing his "personal" machine, of which it is very clear he was extremely proud, especially as it was "K" (for Kiwi - he was a New Zealander).

 

Nairn's description quite clearly excludes any type of desert scheme and we would be hard pressed to imagine that he could confuse "sea green and blue" with any brown hues, so I doubt that only a single colour was applied over a previous overall upper surface desert shade.

 

Photographic evidence provided in the topic clearly shows that the camouflage was applied in a different pattern on each aircraft, supporting the hypothesis that it was field-applied.  The photograph concerned must have been taken between August and October 1942, the period 805 Squadron was in East Africa. Nairn specifically dates the application of the "over-water camouflage design" to late March or early April - at least four months earlier.

 

The reason the over-water camouflage was applied was that 805 Squadron was tasked primarily with convoy protection duties from mid-March 1942, especially to provide cover for a series of efforts to get supplies through to Malta, but also for coastal convoys. As this coincided with the squadron's aircraft going in for major overhauls, I assume the opportunity was taken to repaint them for their new assignment.

 

This last para would suggest that the aircraft were repainted at maintenance unit level which would lean towards consistent application of camouflage? 

 

Back to the question of the missing cowling carburettor scoops....

 

Theory 1

 

If some of the aircraft received new engines, It may be that the engine variant available would have been different to the original 90, they were delivered with.  Perhaps the 86 of the later production F43-3, which didn't have cowling carburettor scoop. It is not clear why these machines didn't have the cowling scoop as the later variants which used the 86 engine (F4F-4, F4F-7 and FM1) re-introduced the carburettor air scoop on the cowling top.  I'm not sure where the carburettor air scoop was on the 86 engine using F4F-3 machines. 

 

Would you also need to change the cowlings if using say an 86 variant engine?  Even if the scoop was redundant, wouldn't you just keep using the perfectly usable cowling?

 

Theory 2

 

The folding wing Martlet IIs also used the 90 engine of the Greek Martlet IIIs but did not have cowling carburettor scoops.  So perhaps the Royal Navy did have plenty of 90 variant engines but ones which did not require the carburettor air scoop on the cowling top.  They would also have plenty of the Martlet II cowlings without the superfluous cowling scoop. 

 

I think Theory 2 is most likely, though I welcome any corrections or alternative theories.

Edited September 16, 2022 by detail is everything
Additional paras

[GiampieroSilvestri]

Thank you very much but I only wanted to know the colours of Greek aircraft.🙂🙂🙂

It is impressive to see that a simple question started a scientific dissertation about the aircraft.

Brilliant answers as most things I did not know.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

Edited September 15, 2022 by GiampieroSilvestri

[detail is everything]

With regard to the a subtle bulge formed integrally with the panel which you refer to in your second post, I just don't see it.  The clearance for the intercooler flange was not required until the redesigned intercooler was introduced with the third and final production batch of F4F-3s, so there would be no need for the airframe concerned to need any subtle bulge at the time it was built.  If the airframe concerned was later retrofitted with the redesigned intercooler, you would think it would have been easier to fit it with the by then standard production Twin Wasp variant nose panel featuring the tear shaped blister sported by the late production F4F-3 machine behind.

 

A.M.958 would have had the early type intercooler of early production F4F-3s, so no bulge subtle or otherwise was required.

Edited September 15, 2022 by detail is everything
Added bit about A.M.958

[detail is everything]

3 minutes ago, GiampieroSilvestri said:

Thank you very much but I only wanted to know the colours of Greek aircraft.🙂🙂🙂

It is impressive to see that a simple question started a scientific dissertation about the aircraft.

Brilliant answers!!!

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

Yes, sorry about that.

 

I can't help myself

[MDriskill]

I can't add anything to the discussion on camo! Thank you for that additional link. 

 

I definitely agree with "Theory 2" to explain the cowl, i.e. simply replacing the R-1830-90 engine; I had the same thought that Martlet II spares are the simplest explanation. The 2-stage supercharged R-1830-86 with associated twin intercoolers, ducting, etc., would surely have been more complex to install. I'm not sure how available it would have been at the time (first Martlet to have it was the Mk V), or what advantage it would've had for low-level work. Also, those late F4F-3's with the "dash 86" and hidden carb intake had 4 pairs of cooling gills; the single pair on these oddball Mk III's match some earlier F4F-3's and the two "dash 90" variants, the Martlet II and F4F-3A / Martlet III.

 

It would be interesting to know more about those carb intake details. I suspect the internal bits were pretty much the same for either the lip or hidden style of intakes, but that's pure speculation.

 

Edited September 16, 2022 by MDriskill

[V Line]

Dana Bell's 'Aircraft Pictorial 4 -F4F Wildcat,' does not cover the Martlet. However, as far as the development of engine and cowl arrangements are concerned there are a number of very clear photographs and helpful text.

[GiampieroSilvestri]

7 hours ago, detail is everything said:

Yes, sorry about that.

 

I can't help myself

Please do not apologize!

It was purely meant joking.

The discussion is very informative for all of us interested in the aircraft.

 

Ciao

 

Giampiero

 

 

Edited September 15, 2022 by GiampieroSilvestri