Jump to content

Austin K2 colours?


keithjs

Recommended Posts

Just a quick query. Comparing the Airfix kit with the Gecko one they both give options for the one HM drove. However, the Airfix one says to paint it Dk Green and the Gecko one is in SCC2 Brown. The photos I have seen of her stood infront of it seems to be a combination of both? And its full gloss too. Just wondering what I should do? Also, anyone know what parts 1,2,3,4 on the clear sprue are for? Thanks in advance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Someone might have a specific answer, but anyway: SCC2 Brown and Dark Green is an unlikely combination, because the Brown was introduced because of a shortage of pigments for greens.  If an early example, it is possibly a mixture of the two early war greens. as one of these was a distinct olive and could look brown in some lights/on some films.  A hint here would be if the camouflage appeared to be in horizontal waves/streaks with the central one lighter.  The late war SCC-15 was an olive drag, basically greenish, so might appear patchily green and brown but this seems unlikely is such a posed picture.  If mid-war SCC2 then the upper  surface will be black or very dark brown, with perhaps patches of the dark colour very low on the body/chassis.

 

However, given the circumstances, I wouldn't guarantee a standard finish anyway. ,

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The glossy finish (probably more satin) suggests pre-war Bronze Green 24.  Pictures of HRH with a Tilly suggest this also.  Those photos of her with various vehicles are taken at an ATS MTS training establishment near Chertsey somewhere.  Current tactical colours would not have been necessary or a priority.  I understand that older home service vehicles could still be found in Bronze Green well into the war.  And in any case ambulances were adorned with large red cross emblems, so any form of camouflage becomes somewhat moot.

 

Khaki Green 3 was a flat matt finish and I'm not aware of any evidence for a glossy version.  Why would you have gloss camouflage paint............  SCC2 Brown was likewise flat matt.  The tone of monochrome images with HRH suggest something darker than SCC2.

 

That image of HRH with the K2 commonly appears as colour, although it also appears as monochrome so it is not clear to me if it is original colour or colourised.  In either case the colour in it is, to my eye at least, Bronze Green 24.  Several paint brand matches for this colour are available.  Vallejo, MRP and Lifecolor to name 3.

 

K2 ambulances in general would have followed the standard production colour progression and theatre variations.  During WW2, RAF ones would not have been blue-grey and Navy ones would not have been dark blue.  These are post-war colours.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you very much. What year do you think those photos were taken? I also notice that the front tyres have a completely different tread to those supplied in both kits.

Edited by keithjs
Link to comment
Share on other sites

49 minutes ago, keithjs said:

Thank you very much. What year do you think those photos were taken? I also notice that the front tyres have a completely different tread to those supplied in both kits.

Doesn't that determine the timescale in which you should model it - or get new tyres to match what you want to model. This, and the theatre of operations, will determine the colours.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Kingsman said:

 

That image of HRH with the K2 commonly appears as colour, although it also appears as monochrome so it is not clear to me if it is original colour or colourised.  

 

 

 

That photo is original Kodachrome colour. A sequence of b&w images was also taken on the same occasion. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Ratch said:

Doesn't that determine the timescale in which you should model it - or get new tyres to match what you want to model. This, and the theatre of operations, will determine the colours.

DEF Models do tyres but of course they're so popular they're OOP (for now)🙄

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gekko tyres are accurate and period-correct. Different brands and tread patterns were used. Airfix tyres are not correct because they chose 2-part wheels and have not been able to mould the curving tread properly. Gekko use a separate slide-moulded tread ring with correctly shaped tread. Worth the extra fiver for that alone. Presumably one of the after market companies will offer corrected wheels.

 

A similar tyre question came up the other day about Leyland Retrievers. I spotted half a dozen different patterns on them.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you. What I meant was that the front tyres on the photos with HM standing by the vehicle are different from the front tyres supplied in the Gecko kit, considering its an almost identical pose (albeit a painting on the box art) and its supposed to represent that particular vehicle. OK, I know tyres can be chaged as required so it's a moot point I suppose.

DEF do 3 different tyre sets for the Airfix kit but I guess they could be adapted for the Gecko one, but they're all OOS at the moment anyway.

Edited by keithjs
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Space Ranger said:

So RAF K2 ambulances would have been Bronze Green?

No - RAF and RN vehicles were repainted to the same instructions issued for the army. Thus, depending on the time period and location of an RAF ambulance, it could be any of a number of different colours and patterns.


The K2 Ambulance entered service in 1940, so they wouldn't have been painted in the pre-war RAF Blue/Grey. Wartime examples would all have been initially probably G3/G4 greens, then SCC2 Brown, with or without 'disruptors' and eventually SCC15 late war and post-war/Korea. They were 'B' (softskin) vehicles and priority for SCC15 repaints was given to 'A' (frontline armoured) vehicles so softskins generally stayed in older schemes for longer. However, K2s remained in service well into the 1950s so post-war RAF examples were repainted in a glossy RAF Blue/Grey.

 

Personally, I'd suggest that SCC2 Brown likely remained the most common colour through the second half of WWII for the K2 in all services in the UK and NW Europe.

 

Princess Elizabeth didn't start her training until early 1945 and it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that the specific K2 was spruced up prior to the photo-op.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 05/09/2022 at 17:14, Graham Boak said:

Someone might have a specific answer, but anyway: SCC2 Brown and Dark Green is an unlikely combination, because the Brown was introduced because of a shortage of pigments for greens.  If an early example, it is possibly a mixture of the two early war greens. as one of these was a distinct olive and could look brown in some lights/on some films.  A hint here would be if the camouflage appeared to be in horizontal waves/streaks with the central one lighter.  The late war SCC-15 was an olive drag, basically greenish, so might appear patchily green and brown but this seems unlikely is such a posed picture.  If mid-war SCC2 then the upper  surface will be black or very dark brown, with perhaps patches of the dark colour very low on the body/chassis.

 

However, given the circumstances, I wouldn't guarantee a standard finish anyway. ,

 

12 hours ago, Kingsman said:

The glossy finish (probably more satin) suggests pre-war Bronze Green 24.  Pictures of HRH with a Tilly suggest this also.  Those photos of her with various vehicles are taken at an ATS MTS training establishment near Chertsey somewhere.  Current tactical colours would not have been necessary or a priority.  I understand that older home service vehicles could still be found in Bronze Green well into the war.  And in any case ambulances were adorned with large red cross emblems, so any form of camouflage becomes somewhat moot.

 

Khaki Green 3 was a flat matt finish and I'm not aware of any evidence for a glossy version.  Why would you have gloss camouflage paint............  SCC2 Brown was likewise flat matt.  The tone of monochrome images with HRH suggest something darker than SCC2.

 

That image of HRH with the K2 commonly appears as colour, although it also appears as monochrome so it is not clear to me if it is original colour or colourised.  In either case the colour in it is, to my eye at least, Bronze Green 24.  Several paint brand matches for this colour are available.  Vallejo, MRP and Lifecolor to name 3.

 

K2 ambulances in general would have followed the standard production colour progression and theatre variations.  During WW2, RAF ones would not have been blue-grey and Navy ones would not have been dark blue.  These are post-war colours.

Bulled up for the photographer?  They both look very very clean,  and I believe an oily rag would impart a suitable gloss appearance. 

Image%201%20-%20KB%20M.jpg

 

lead%20image%20-%20KB%20M-4.jpg

 

Colour film was rare, and there was enough time for a change of clothes.

 

The vehicle numbers are present, so some date can be assigned.

 

From what I know of the colours, and I have @Mike Starmer books now these look to be Khaki Green G.3 ?  Neither look to be either SSC2 brown or SCC 15 to me.

 

36 minutes ago, Space Ranger said:

So RAF K2 ambulances would have been Bronze Green?

It would depend on date.  RAF ground vehilcles were supposed to follow army camouflage practice, but tended to last longer. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, keithjs said:

Thank you very much. What year do you think those photos were taken? I also notice that the front tyres have a completely different tread to those supplied in both kits.

 

The photos were taken in April 1945.

 

I'd agree that the cab of the K2 does appear to be in KG3, especially in the bottom photo posted by @Troy Smith. It's certainly not easy to discern though, as the light, or the exposure perhaps, has changed between the two images. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

 

Bulled up for the photographer?  They both look very very clean,  and I believe an oily rag would impart a suitable gloss appearance. 

. . . 

Dunno if this adds anything. Both my father and a bro-in-law, one served in US Army 1951 on , the other Irish Guards, c.1956 on, said when an inspection was due their vehicles were washed down with petrol. It gave the vehicles a 'nice sheen, almost a gloss'

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

49 minutes ago, keithjs said:

I'm now not sure whether to go for Dark Bronze Green as suggested earlier or Khaki Green

I'd wait and see if anyone who really knows pitches in Keith.    @Mike Starmer is the main researcher, and @Kingsman  is very up on what is 

 

As the vehicle numbers are known,  construction dates are likely known as well.

If they are old, and predate 1942, Khaki Green, if they are newer,  then this might be SCC15 Olive Drab. 

Given this is 1945, I'd discount Deep Bronze Green, it's deep bottle green, and is a pre war colour.  

 

I searched up the K2 census number 

 

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/missinglynx/new-gecko-k2-ambo-on-offer-t330820-s10.html

 

"As a Driver and Mechanic training vehicle, there was no tactical reason for it to be camouflaged, and the census number puts it firmly in the SCC2 era. "

 

the lower colour

 

on this Churchill is SCC2 

Guards_Armoured_Training_Wing,_Pirbright

 

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Guards_Armoured_Training_Wing%2C_Pirbright%2C_Surrey%2C_October_1943_TR1410.jpg

 

this is supposed to be Khaki Green G.3

large_000000.jpg

 

HTH

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If the K2 is the same in both photos, then there is certainly a range of colours on the body and as much between the two pictures. Ah, the joys of colour photographs, and expecting them to settle arguments.  The box body will have been painted separately from the cab/bonnet as these were made separately.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I believe that the photos were taken when the King and Queen were visiting, hence the attention to presentation and the glossy finish. Wiping vehicles with petrol was still going on in the 80s although there were attempts to stop it as it affected the IRR paint.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, John Tapsell said:

No - RAF and RN vehicles were repainted to the same instructions issued for the army. Thus, depending on the time period and location of an RAF ambulance, it could be any of a number of different colours and patterns.


The K2 Ambulance entered service in 1940, so they wouldn't have been painted in the pre-war RAF Blue/Grey. Wartime examples would all have been initially probably G3/G4 greens, then SCC2 Brown, with or without 'disruptors' and eventually SCC15 late war and post-war/Korea. They were 'B' (softskin) vehicles and priority for SCC15 repaints was given to 'A' (frontline armoured) vehicles so softskins generally stayed in older schemes for longer. However, K2s remained in service well into the 1950s so post-war RAF examples were repainted in a glossy RAF Blue/Grey.

 

Personally, I'd suggest that SCC2 Brown likely remained the most common colour through the second half of WWII for the K2 in all services in the UK and NW Europe.

 

Princess Elizabeth didn't start her training until early 1945 and it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that the specific K2 was spruced up prior to the photo-op.

i understnd that the K2 was not very common in the RAF during WW2,  it was mostly used postwar by that service.

 

Selwyn

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The main ambulances used by the RAF in WW2 were the Albion AM463 and the Fordson WOT1. We have the Airfix RAF Emergency Set to thank for the fallacy that they were used extensively by the RAF during WW2.
 

Apparently RAF contracts for the K2/Y only came very late in the war.

 

K2/Ys WERE seen on airfields but (a) these are likely to be reverse lend-lease examples on USAAF bases and (b) operated by the civilian aid services (BRCS & SJAB) with civilian number plates transporting wounded service personnel to hospital following Dakota casevac flights from the NWE campaign.

 

The video of HMQ driving that K2/Y also shows that the ambulance had the square box ventilators on the roof, which I took, along with the 7 digit census number and analysis of those colour pictures, to suggest that the ambulance was not from early production batches.
 

Furthermore the desperate shortage of all vehicles after Dunkirk (eg Ambulance bodies were being bolted onto impressed flat-bed Bedfords) might suggest that operational demands trumped the need for driver and maintenance training aids, at least in the early war years.

 

Austin built their own bodies as well as using those from Mann Egerton.

 

At the end of the day though, it’s your model, paint it as you think fit, based on your own analysis of the evidence you see before you

Edited by Simon B King
Spelling
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Fascinating stuff this discussion about British wartime colours and made all the more interesting by the addition of the colour photos. I'm glad it's not me trying to get it right for my model as I am tied in knots.

 

🤪

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Taking all of the above into account I think we're looking at 2 possible choices of colour for this specific vehicle.  In both cases it probably was oil-wiped for the regal visit to see what their daughter had been up to, hence the sheen. 

  • It could be a later-production vehicle in SCC15: entirely possible in 1945, but hold that thought.
  • It could be an earlier-production vehicle still in Khaki Green 3.  Many home service vehicles stayed that way throughout the war.
    • With the sheen it does perhaps look more like the earlier bronze green.  Remember that the change to satin finish in 1944 for US OD No9 - a colour in the green/brown crossover not dissimilar to KG3 - made it look much greener despite the pigmentation not changing.

Un-holding that thought from above, there is the question of the K2 version and this may influence the colour.  We can't see all of it, and crucially we can't see the roof vents.  Both kit manufacturers have chosen a "mid" version, with the later fixed roof vents but still with the larger spare wheel bulge.  The "late" version had a much smaller spare wheel bulge, so we know it isn't one of those.  I haven't manged to find a changeover date for the spare wheel bulge, but photo head counting says they were much less common.  But the "early" version also had the large bulge, with rotating roof vents.  And one of those would almost certainly have been finished in Khaki Green 3.

 

Being absolutely definitive here is unlikely because of the oily sheen.  It could be KG3, it could be SCC15.  Your choice.  As for paint brand, your choice too.

 

If it ever was SCC2, as suggested earlier from the census number, then it has been very carefully repainted including the entirety of the cab interior.  Which would make it SCC15.  But that would seem unlikely for a home service training unit.  We only see HRH pictured with the one Tilly and the one K2 and they do look very well kept: were they "ringers" prepared and bought in specially?  The film clips of HRH driving ambulances for real are not the same vehicle.  It would be one from an ambulance unit, probably RASC.

 

Note the different tyre tread patterns, mentioned earlier.  HRH's K2 has different tyres front and back on that side.  The rear ones are those in both kits, although the Gekko ones are much better and represent the tread pattern correctly.

 

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for your help everyone, much appreciated. I'll wait till the last minute before I need to apply paint but I've all colours mentioned handy just in case. With regard to roof vents I can live with those whatever they may be. 🤔

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...