Tom R Posted September 10, 2022 Share Posted September 10, 2022 (edited) I looked at few pictures just recently - the low-res ones sometimes have a bit of doubt about the presence of the wires but the majority are either discernable or good evidence they are not there. I was sent some very high res ones and they are crystal clear. Again I say - storm in teacup! Edited September 10, 2022 by Tom R 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Harmsworth Posted September 10, 2022 Author Share Posted September 10, 2022 1 hour ago, Tom R said: Again I say - storm in teacup! No need to. It was a simple question at the outset with plenty of info provided by people interested along with some good dialogue. I asked the question originally and I've been watching the thread with interest. So I'd add my thanks to all. Mark 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoffrey Sinclair Posted September 11, 2022 Share Posted September 11, 2022 If anyone just happens to be in Canberra with some time to spare, Australian Archives Series Number A705 Control Symbol 150/4/363 DTS [Directorate of Technical Services] - Anson order number 3 - tail plane bracing [15 folios] Access status: Open Location: Canberra 1937 - 1938 ID number 3030139 Or in Melbourne, all files open, B5752 359A Avro Anson Cadet AV Roe and Co Ltd [Contains 27 drawings] 1931 - 1935 532052 B5752 360A Avro Anson Cadet AV Roe and Co Ltd [Contains 27 drawings] 1935 - 1935 532053 B5752 374A Avro Anson Tudor and Canadian AV Roe and Co Ltd [Contains 28 drawings] 1940 - 1941 532054 B5752 512A Avro Anson Cadet [Contains 1 drawing] 1940 - 1940 532055 B5752 543 Avro Anson Cadet and York Military [Contains 39 drawings] 1929 - 1948 532056 B5752 552A Avro Anson, Avro 19, Tutor, Cadet, York AV Roe and Co Ltd [Contains 81 drawings] 1941 - 1946 532057 B5752 359B Avro Anson Cadet AV Roe and Co Ltd [Contains 70 drawings] 1932 - 1947 852961 B5752 360B Avro Anson Cadet AV Roe and Co Ltd [Contains 48 drawings] 1935 - 1943 852966 B5752 360C Avro Anson Cadet AV Roe and Co Ltd [Contains 48 drawings] 1935 - 1935 852969 B5752 374B Avro Anson Tudor and Canadian AV Roe and Co Ltd [Contains 31 drawings] 1931 - 1945 852980 B5752 374C Avro Anson Tudor and Canadian AV Roe and Co Ltd [Contains 20 drawings] 1939 - 1947 852986 B5752 512B Avro Anson Cadet AV Roe and Co Ltd [Contains 254 drawings] 1931 - 1947 852996 B5752 552B Avro Anson, Avro 19, Tutor, Cadet, York AV Roe and Co Ltd [Contains 48 drawings] 1927 - 1948 853013 B5752 436 Avro Anson Cadet - AV Roe and Co Ltd [Contains 63 drawings] 1935 - 1942 1000871 B6118 30 PART 1 [AVRO 652A type ANSON; Manufacturer's diagrams - A V ROE & Co Ltd, Aeronautical Engineers, Manchester, London & Hamble; drawing numbers include: 132/F26S5; 5 & 6/Z2151; 3/ES10; Z2151; 6 & 7/E.76S; 4S/F.2696;10/E.S10; F2705; 3/F.2S21; Z1668; F.2685][Folder 1 of 4] circa1934 - circa1944 1834277 Access status: Not yet examined, so a request to open them has to be made, which will take time to resolve. B6118 30 PART 2 [AVRO 652A type ANSON; Manufacturer's diagrams - A V ROE & Co Ltd, Aeronautical Engineers, Manchester, London & Hamble; drawing numbers include: 132/F26S5; 5 & 6/Z2151; 3/ES10; Z2151; 6 & 7/E.76S; 4S/F.2696;10/E.S10; F2705; 3/F.2S21; Z1668; F.2685][75 x 100cm][Folder 2 of 4] circa1934 - circa1944 5945320 B6118 30 PART 3 [AVRO 652A type ANSON; Manufacturer's diagrams - A V ROE & Co Ltd, Aeronautical Engineers, Manchester, London & Hamble; drawing numbers include: 132/F26S5; 5 & 6/Z2151; 3/ES10; Z2151; 6 & 7/E.76S; 4S/F.2696;10/E.S10; F2705; 3/F.2S21; Z1668; F.2685][50 X 67cm][Folder 3 of 4] circa1934 - circa1944 5945321 B6118 30 PART 4 [AVRO 652A type ANSON; Manufacturer's diagrams - A V ROE & Co Ltd, Aeronautical Engineers, Manchester, London & Hamble; drawing numbers include: 132/F26S5; 5 & 6/Z2151; 3/ES10; Z2151; 6 & 7/E.76S; 4S/F.2696;10/E.S10; F2705; 3/F.2S21; Z1668; F.2685][50 X 67cm][Folder 4 of 4] circa1934 - circa1944 5945322 Readable online, A14487 12/AB/2365 Air Board Agenda 2365 (RAAF) - Spares for conversion of unflapped Avro Anson aircraft - Overseas Indent No. 685 1938 - 1939 24190307, from wood no flaps to metal with flaps. A14487 20/AB/3538 Air Board Agenda 3538 (RAAF) - Supply of Anson airframe spares - Demand Aircraft Production Commission No. 542 1941 - 1941 24380763 (contains a list) If in London, AVIA 14/64/12 Ministry of Aircraft Production and predecessors: Royal Aircraft Factory, later Royal Aircraft Establishment: Aircraft, Engine and Equipment Drawings. ANCILLARY EQUIPMENT. Aerodyramic data sheets. Avro Anson 18/35. Held by: The National Archives, Kew - Ministry of Aviation Date: 14 December 1936 Reference: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Roberts Posted September 11, 2022 Share Posted September 11, 2022 8 hours ago, Geoffrey Sinclair said: If anyone just happens to be in Canberra with some time to spare, Australian Archives Series Number A705 Control Symbol 150/4/363 DTS [Directorate of Technical Services] - Anson order number 3 - tail plane bracing [15 folios] Access status: Open Location: Canberra 1937 - 1938 ID number 3030139 Or in Melbourne, all files open, B5752 359A Avro Anson Cadet AV Roe and Co Ltd [Contains 27 drawings] 1931 - 1935 532052 B5752 360A Avro Anson Cadet AV Roe and Co Ltd [Contains 27 drawings] 1935 - 1935 532053 B5752 374A Avro Anson Tudor and Canadian AV Roe and Co Ltd [Contains 28 drawings] 1940 - 1941 532054 B5752 512A Avro Anson Cadet [Contains 1 drawing] 1940 - 1940 532055 B5752 543 Avro Anson Cadet and York Military [Contains 39 drawings] 1929 - 1948 532056 B5752 552A Avro Anson, Avro 19, Tutor, Cadet, York AV Roe and Co Ltd [Contains 81 drawings] 1941 - 1946 532057 B5752 359B Avro Anson Cadet AV Roe and Co Ltd [Contains 70 drawings] 1932 - 1947 852961 B5752 360B Avro Anson Cadet AV Roe and Co Ltd [Contains 48 drawings] 1935 - 1943 852966 B5752 360C Avro Anson Cadet AV Roe and Co Ltd [Contains 48 drawings] 1935 - 1935 852969 B5752 374B Avro Anson Tudor and Canadian AV Roe and Co Ltd [Contains 31 drawings] 1931 - 1945 852980 B5752 374C Avro Anson Tudor and Canadian AV Roe and Co Ltd [Contains 20 drawings] 1939 - 1947 852986 B5752 512B Avro Anson Cadet AV Roe and Co Ltd [Contains 254 drawings] 1931 - 1947 852996 B5752 552B Avro Anson, Avro 19, Tutor, Cadet, York AV Roe and Co Ltd [Contains 48 drawings] 1927 - 1948 853013 B5752 436 Avro Anson Cadet - AV Roe and Co Ltd [Contains 63 drawings] 1935 - 1942 1000871 B6118 30 PART 1 [AVRO 652A type ANSON; Manufacturer's diagrams - A V ROE & Co Ltd, Aeronautical Engineers, Manchester, London & Hamble; drawing numbers include: 132/F26S5; 5 & 6/Z2151; 3/ES10; Z2151; 6 & 7/E.76S; 4S/F.2696;10/E.S10; F2705; 3/F.2S21; Z1668; F.2685][Folder 1 of 4] circa1934 - circa1944 1834277 Access status: Not yet examined, so a request to open them has to be made, which will take time to resolve. B6118 30 PART 2 [AVRO 652A type ANSON; Manufacturer's diagrams - A V ROE & Co Ltd, Aeronautical Engineers, Manchester, London & Hamble; drawing numbers include: 132/F26S5; 5 & 6/Z2151; 3/ES10; Z2151; 6 & 7/E.76S; 4S/F.2696;10/E.S10; F2705; 3/F.2S21; Z1668; F.2685][75 x 100cm][Folder 2 of 4] circa1934 - circa1944 5945320 B6118 30 PART 3 [AVRO 652A type ANSON; Manufacturer's diagrams - A V ROE & Co Ltd, Aeronautical Engineers, Manchester, London & Hamble; drawing numbers include: 132/F26S5; 5 & 6/Z2151; 3/ES10; Z2151; 6 & 7/E.76S; 4S/F.2696;10/E.S10; F2705; 3/F.2S21; Z1668; F.2685][50 X 67cm][Folder 3 of 4] circa1934 - circa1944 5945321 B6118 30 PART 4 [AVRO 652A type ANSON; Manufacturer's diagrams - A V ROE & Co Ltd, Aeronautical Engineers, Manchester, London & Hamble; drawing numbers include: 132/F26S5; 5 & 6/Z2151; 3/ES10; Z2151; 6 & 7/E.76S; 4S/F.2696;10/E.S10; F2705; 3/F.2S21; Z1668; F.2685][50 X 67cm][Folder 4 of 4] circa1934 - circa1944 5945322 Readable online, A14487 12/AB/2365 Air Board Agenda 2365 (RAAF) - Spares for conversion of unflapped Avro Anson aircraft - Overseas Indent No. 685 1938 - 1939 24190307, from wood no flaps to metal with flaps. A14487 20/AB/3538 Air Board Agenda 3538 (RAAF) - Supply of Anson airframe spares - Demand Aircraft Production Commission No. 542 1941 - 1941 24380763 (contains a list) If in London, AVIA 14/64/12 Ministry of Aircraft Production and predecessors: Royal Aircraft Factory, later Royal Aircraft Establishment: Aircraft, Engine and Equipment Drawings. ANCILLARY EQUIPMENT. Aerodyramic data sheets. Avro Anson 18/35. Held by: The National Archives, Kew - Ministry of Aviation Date: 14 December 1936 Reference: It just so happens I will be at the NA in Canberra next month. I have other fish to fry, but will see if I can check this one out too. Nice work! Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Lindekens Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 Hello all, quite interesting thread this. Just had a look at my copy of AP 1525A&D, Vol I Avro Anson Mk 1 and IV and look what I found: So wondering now if that bracing wasn't a standard feature that is just invisible on most photographs of the aircraft. Hope this is of interest. Cheers, Walter 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 Perhaps, but this manual is only saying that it was standard in January 1943 which I think we are all agreed upon. It does not imply that it was present from the start of Mk.I production and can say nothing about its presence/absence on later variants. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Lindekens Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 Point taken Graham, so we need to find an earlier copy of the AP for conclusive evidence... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Russell Posted September 13, 2022 Share Posted September 13, 2022 4 hours ago, Walter Lindekens said: is just invisible on most photographs of the aircraft. (?) Cropped from a 25MB picture. Given the writing is easily readable I think the bracing would be visible too. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tempestfan Posted September 13, 2022 Share Posted September 13, 2022 On 9/9/2022 at 4:53 PM, Peter Roberts said: Please do!! Would love to know some of the intricacies of this plane. I did, and regrettably the coverage of development, mods and the technical side is, shall we say - brief. I also had a quick look in an ancient booklet by Alan Hall and Eric Taylor (Almark 1972 - now that was a good year...), but while some mods are mentioned, I did not see any reference to the bracing. As they were just beside that booklet and the File, I also flicked through the Pilot's notes, but as expected they do not mention anything and besides are part of the same 1943 AP as posted above, so of no use regarding the topic. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Roberts Posted September 13, 2022 Share Posted September 13, 2022 An early ‘K’ series aircraft, initially without bracing, but later fitted with bracing? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeronut22 Posted September 13, 2022 Share Posted September 13, 2022 I do wish my Grandfather was still about he was Works Foreman at Newton Heath where the early Ansons were built, and he also oversaw the move of Anson production to Yeadon. This thread has me wondering when the tailplane was changed from a wooden construction to metal? Did it precede the change to metal mainplanes on early aircraft as a Form, Fit and Function mod? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilneBay Posted September 13, 2022 Share Posted September 13, 2022 IIRC D. H. Clarke in his classic What Were They Like to Fly, his entertaining account of the various aircraft he flew in WW2, he described a sortie in an Anson at the time of Dunkirk where he observed that the horizontal stabs appeared to be flapping. The way he words it, it seem to be a not uncommon occurrence. Perhaps he had one of the unrigged ones. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Russell Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 9 hours ago, Peter Roberts said: An early ‘K’ series aircraft, initially without bracing, but later fitted with bracing? Yes, indeed. May well never have had the tail bracing modification. K8808 became A4-29 in RAAF service from Feb 1938. Crashed in August 1938 at Arthurs Seat near Dromana while on a navigational exercise in bad weather. Written off and engines salvaged as instructional items. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 Has any of the interested parties tried contacting the museum at Woodford? They seem to be likely to have Anson records. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Lindekens Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 Hi all, I in meantime found out that the modification that called for the tailplane bracing is Mod. Nr 108 so would seem to be a fairly early one. No date though so I've e-mailed the RAFM asking if they have the Anson Modification Leaflets in their collection and if they could check the date of Mod 108 for me. To be continued :). Cheers, Walter 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Roberts Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Walter Lindekens said: Hi all, I in meantime found out that the modification that called for the tailplane bracing is Mod. Nr 108 so would seem to be a fairly early one. No date though so I've e-mailed the RAFM asking if they have the Anson Modification Leaflets in their collection and if they could check the date of Mod 108 for me. To be continued :). Cheers, Walter Based on Ed’s post above, and Peter’s earlier, it seems RAAF aircraft were modified sometime between February and August 1938. I’ve organised to examine the file found by Geoff in Canberra, next month, so will see what that says too. Edited September 14, 2022 by Peter Roberts 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Lindekens Posted October 2, 2022 Share Posted October 2, 2022 Hi all, No luck with the RAF Museum I'm afraid, they haven't got the Anson Mk I modification leaflets in their collection. Cheers, Walter 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Roberts Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 (edited) Following on from Geoffrey Sinclair's wonderful interrogation of the National Archives of Australia, I was able to view the first mentioned file in his list above, which is also RAAF file 150/4/363. The file contains orders and instructions for the installation of the Anson's tail plane bracing wires, but no drawings or reasons behind the need for these wires. Intriguingly, another earlier RAAF file 150/4/274 is cited as the reason for the need for this order. I personally haven't had time to trawl through the NAA files yet, but will have a go to see if it is there, unless someone beats me to it. In the meantime, here is much of what file 150/4/363 sets out: Avro Anson Tail Bracing - NAA Series A705, Control Symbol 150/4/363 Anson Order No. 3 (Issue 2) This modification introduces diagonal bracings from fin post, rudder top hinge fitting, to tailplane rear spar (as per drawing G-1035, Issue 1) It incorporates a modified rudder top hinge bracket replacing the existing type which has proved defective. This bracket is manufactured by No.1 Aircraft Depot, along with several bracing plates. The parts list includes 10cwt cable and several plywood patches and stiffening patches. The process begins with removal of the rudder and elevators. The top covering of the tailplane, port and starboard, between ribs 4 and 5 and front and rear spars has to be cut away. The centre elevator hinges are disassembled, then reassembled with bracing plates. The process next requires doping of the reinforcing strip on the fin fabric in the position of the hand hold to give access to the rudder top hinge bracket attachment bolts, then cut the hand hole and dismantle the existing hinge bracket. The new rudder top hinge bracket assembly incorporating a lug plate is then installed, checking assembly of the bracing cables. The rudder top hinge cover is removed and the rudder assembly on the fin is checked. After further securing the rudder top hinge bracket a patch is applied over the hand hold in the fin. New panels for the tailplane upper surface are cut from plywood and slotted to clear bracing lugs; reinforcing patches are glued and bradded to the undersides of the panels (drawings G-1035B and A-1322/1). These panels are then glued and bradded to the existing skin over ribs, stringers, front and rear spars. The bracing cables are assembled to the bracing plate lugs and tension stiffened to remove slack. DO NOT TENSION TO GIVE ANY LOAD IN THE TAIL PLANE. Apply standard protective treatment to plywood patches. Stencil in black letters on the top covering of the tail plane, port side only, the following notice: IMPORTANT TENSION CABLES TO REMOVE SLACK ONLY NOT TO GIVE ANY LOAD IN TAIL PLANE Reassemble rudder and elevators The modifications were to be incorporated in aircraft as follows: Aircraft in Store – before issue providing incorporation of the modifications does not delay aircraft delivery to units Aircraft in Service – at the earliest opportunity, but not later than the next 120 hourly inspection after receipt of parts for the modifications. References: Anson modification no. 108, RAAF file 150/4/274 Drawings: G-1035 and A-1322 issued previously under Anson Order No. 3 Issue 1, and A-1380 distributed separately to Station Engineer Officers and No. 1 Aircraft Depot Date of Issue: 3rd December 1937; First requested: 23 November 1937 Obviously this applies to RAAF Ansons, but would it be fair to presume that it would apply to Ansons in other Air Forces? I would presume this process would originate from the manufacturer, Avro? A couple of points that caught my eye: the original rudder top hinge brackets were faulty - ?!; following this modification, the tail plane upper surface will have a patch on the skin between ribs 4 and 5 and the front and rear spars.; also following this modification, there will be a stencil on the port upper tail plane (presumably on the patched area??) relating to the tensioning of the cables. Edited October 14, 2022 by Peter Roberts 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoffrey Sinclair Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 (edited) Thanks for taking the look, interesting to see how early the change was and by the looks of things the decision the wires were the solution rather than other changes to the vertical tail and rudder system. The Australian Archives system is for the control symbol to be what reference ID original agency used for the file/record. There is no control symbol 150/4/274 present, so it probably means contacting the RAAF history people for the slight chance the record has been kept by the RAAF. Advanced Search using 150/4/* as the control symbol (* being the wild card) plus Anson in the title results in 208 files but not 274. "150/4/" seems to be a standard reference for these sorts of instructions, so for example readable online A705 150/4/555 DTS [Directorate of Technical Services] - Publication of technical orders - Aircraft general instruction number F 3 - paints and varnishes for use on aircraft 1939 - 1940 item ID 3031143 A705 150/4/3999 DAM (AM7) - Technical Order - Publication of M/T Maintenance Instruction 2/34 - Camouflage Disruptive Painting - M/T Vehicles and Equipment 1943 - 1943 item ID 3091760 A705 150/4/5053 HQ [Headquarters] DRM [Directorate of Repairs and Maintenance] RAAF Headquarters - RM8 - Marine Craft Instruction 3/2 - Marine Craft Painting and Marking RAAF Crash and Rescue Launches 1944 - 1949 item ID 3107828 Edited October 14, 2022 by Geoffrey Sinclair Text missed in the original cut and paste from the editor. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Roberts Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 (edited) Thanks Geoffrey, very helpful! Edited October 14, 2022 by Peter Roberts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now