R.A.F P40 question.....

[mackem01]

After a mojo loss  I've finally got this back on the bench. I am slowly approaching the painting stage and I have a question for the knowledgeable amongst us. So these P40's would have arrived in the UK painted in US equivalents of DE/DG/Sky. Would the rear fuselage Sky ID band and spinner then have been applied in the UK with the correct paints or would they have arrived already done??

[Mike Starmer]

They arrive pre-painted with US equivalents.  The Sky spinner and command band were applied in Britain after erection.  Those sent directly overseas would not require those markings.     

[BS_w]

depending model, when they were delivery

H81 Tomahawk; the spinner was sky gray as underside, No band around fuselage

H87 Kittyhawk, spinner was DE, no band

Edited August 31, 2022 by BS_w

[Graham Boak]

Surely not Sky Grey bit Sky Grey Type S - different Dupont colours., thelatter being their equivalent of Sky.

[mhaselden]

1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

Surely not Sky Grey bit Sky Grey Type S - different Dupont colours., thelatter being their equivalent of Sky.

 

Alas, Tom Tullis' book on AVG colours makes the claim that the undersides were painted grey.  The basis for such analysis is the available colour images, with all the inherent problems that arise if trying to adjust to what "looks right" to the viewer.  As we all know, discerning subtle tonal differences between grey, pale green and pale blue can be very difficult, even on good-quality colour imagery.  Alas, the genie is out of the bottle and many now accept Tullis' assessment that AVG airframes had grey undersides.  

[Graham Boak]

However, as the Curtiss records call for Sky Type S Grey, which id less green than the proper Sky, I doubt that everyone is convinced by analysis of existing colour photos.  

[mhaselden]

Entirely agree, Graham.  We also have the logical flaw that, somehow, Americans misinterpreted Sky as Sky Grey despite the fact that British Purchasing Commission inspectors visited the production lines to ensure the contractors were meeting the requirements.  

 

Now, I can see a scenario where a company says "We can't get that colour (sorry, color).  Is this one close enough?" but such a change probably wouldn't just be done verbally.  There ought to be some documentation, somewhere....but nothing has emerged in the past 80+ years to support such a theory.  

 

Alas, some are happy to claim (or even publish) conjecture as fact which then gets accepted as "truth"....and so we keep revisiting these topics over and over again.  

[Dana Bell]

The values of US Sky Grey versus US Sky versus British colours are still an open question, though many seem to believe it can be closed.

 

The duPont color 71-021 is listed as Sky Type S Gray [sic] in some records and Sky in others.  Was 71-021 revised or was the name simply changed?

 

In December 1939, Lockheed completed delivery of its 200th Hudson for Britain.  Many of those aircraft had light gray bellies (while others had black - or possibly Night and others had dull aluminum).  The only possible color at time was Sky Gray - the color Sky did not exist until spring 1940.

 

The British Purchasing Commission in Washington continued to request Sky Gray into early 1942, when members suddenly discovered they were supposed to be ordering Sky.  So our unanswered questions are:

 

1 - When did the US begin switching to Sky from Sky Gray?

2 - Was duPont 71-021 revised as a color, or was the name changed

3 - If US Sky Gray was originally a greenish color, why was that so when the British spces didn't call for green (that is "Sky") until spring 1940?

 

There may be a simple answer to all this, or there may be a complicated one, but so far we don't have documentation of any answer.

 

Cheers,

 

 

Dana

Edited August 31, 2022 by Dana Bell
correct typo

[Graham Boak]

Blenheims were being painted in Sky, or something remarkably similar, over the winter of 1939/40.  This was some time before it was authorised by the Air Ministry for Fighter Command in the early summer.  Sky was similarly adopted for the FAA in September.

 

The well-publicised Dupont chart showing 71-021 as Sky Type S Grey also has a separate colour called, and apparently a good match to, Sky Grey.  This colour was adopted prewar for the FAA, and will have  appeared in the the appropriate references made available to the US before Sky was referred to.  It seems only reasonable to assume that this chart therefore post-dates the Fighter Command adoption of this colour, so is relevant to the P-40s but not to prewar Hudson.  I see no reason for requiring any kind colour name change: Sky Grey existed first and Sky/Sky Type S Grey appeared later.  It may be relevant that Sky Grey has a lower Dupont number.

 

My understanding is that the correct underside options for Coastal Command Hudson was Aluminium or Night.   I'm not certain that this was in use before the arrival of the Hudson, but this would appear to be entirely consistent with other CC aircraft, but there was no RAF scheme involving light grey undersides prewar.  It can perhaps can be understood as a fair representation of the FAA Temperate Sea Scheme (as correct for the top) with Sky Grey undersides.  There seems to be no problem other that perhaps a misunderstanding of the correct underside colour for Coasta Command.  Perhaps Coastal Command was assumed to be under the control of the Navy, as in the US, or the RAF, as in the UK, but this is guessing.  There is at least one colour photo showing Hudsons painted not in Sky Grey but in Sky Type S Grey.  As this was correct for the FAA and RAF post September 1940, this seems  to date the photo to after this date, regardless of any earlier situation..

 

I agree that this may not have completely prevented Curtiss production line using a different colour than the Design Office specified, but it seems unlikely at this stage.  However this does open the door to much wider,, if not fantastical, suggestions as to how any particular aircraft in any nation at any time may have been painted.  Either way, I find it difficult to see that any modern estimation based upon the analysis of many varied period photographs can be more reliable.

[HBBates]

I will add again that having see and taken samples of a Tomahawk skin recovered from Russia. The underside appears to a match to Dupont chart showing 71-021. And does have a green cast

 

 

 

 

Edited September 1, 2022 by HBBates

[Selwyn]

9 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Blenheims were being painted in Sky, or something remarkably similar, over the winter of 1939/40.  This was some time before it was authorised by the Air Ministry for Fighter Command in the early summer.  Sky was similarly adopted for the FAA in September.

 

The well-publicised Dupont chart showing 71-021 as Sky Type S Grey also has a separate colour called, and apparently a good match to, Sky Grey.  This colour was adopted prewar for the FAA, and will have  appeared in the the appropriate references made available to the US before Sky was referred to.  It seems only reasonable to assume that this chart therefore post-dates the Fighter Command adoption of this colour, so is relevant to the P-40s but not to prewar Hudson.  I see no reason for requiring any kind colour name change: Sky Grey existed first and Sky/Sky Type S Grey appeared later.  It may be relevant that Sky Grey has a lower Dupont number.

 

My understanding is that the correct underside options for Coastal Command Hudson was Aluminium or Night.   I'm not certain that this was in use before the arrival of the Hudson, but this would appear to be entirely consistent with other CC aircraft, but there was no RAF scheme involving light grey undersides prewar.  It can perhaps can be understood as a fair representation of the FAA Temperate Sea Scheme (as correct for the top) with Sky Grey undersides.  There seems to be no problem other that perhaps a misunderstanding of the correct underside colour for Coasta Command.  Perhaps Coastal Command was assumed to be under the control of the Navy, as in the US, or the RAF, as in the UK, but this is guessing.  There is at least one colour photo showing Hudsons painted not in Sky Grey but in Sky Type S Grey.  As this was correct for the FAA and RAF post September 1940, this seems  to date the photo to after this date, regardless of any earlier situation..

 

I agree that this may not have completely prevented Curtiss production line using a different colour than the Design Office specified, but it seems unlikely at this stage.  However this does open the door to much wider,, if not fantastical, suggestions as to how any particular aircraft in any nation at any time may have been painted.  Either way, I find it difficult to see that any modern estimation based upon the analysis of many varied period photographs can be more reliable.

Sky was called "Camotint" before it was Sky. Type S refers to the finish "Smooth." Matt paints were found to be a bit draggy and it became practice to rub down the Matt paint finish, so type S paints with a more satin finish were introduced. If you look at the finish of RAF aircraft in images from the battle of France the aircraft seem to be noticeably duller in finish. I think Sky was the only paint that got the type S moniker as Smoother paints became the norm, you didn't have to differentiate.

 

Selwyn

[Graham Boak]

8 hours ago, Selwyn said:

Sky was called "Camotint" before it was Sky. 

 

But not apparently on the Blenheims.  Camotint was the name given by Titanine when they produced the colour for Sydney Cotton in what became 1 PRU.

 

To my knowledge, the Blenheim colour had a different name - Paul Lucas wrote about it but I'm not sure where.  It was not a previously used Air Ministry colour.  The exact relationship between it and Sky has not been clarified to my knowledge.  I do however have a suspicion that the Air Ministry would have at least as familiar with this colour as they were with Camotint, before deciding upon a wider adoption of Sky.

[BS_w]

about Camotit/Sky "S"

 

HTH