Jump to content

HMS Hermes and HMS Invincible - Deck marking sizes during the Falklands War


NG899

Recommended Posts

Good evening everyone,

 

Any information to help with this would be appreciated. I know from printed BAe sources that the 'runway’ width on both carriers was 45ft, but...

1. Did that include the white strips at each edge of the strip?

2. How wide were the white edging lines, 8ins? (Judging by deck crews' boots on them in photos this seems a likely width.)

3. How wide was the black strip down the centre of the runway, 6ft, 6ft 6ins or...?

4. What was the diameter of the spot circles on Hermes 22ft? (There were no spot circles on Invincible at this time)

5. What was the line width of those circles, which looks thicker than the other deck lines, 10ins or 1ft?

6. What size were the deck numbers on both carriers? H 6ft 6ins? W 4ft 8 ins? 8ins stoke width?

 

It would also be good to know what colour the green sections of Hermes' deck around the island were. I know they were not RN Deck Green, Middle Bronze Green BS381C:223 has been suggested.

 

Many thanks for any help.

 

All the best

 

Nick

 

(I'm also posting this in the Cold War aircraft modelling area.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

Are these any use? No measurements, but you can see the colour and layout.  It is pre-Falklands (August 1981) and just out of refit, so the decks are freshly painted and undamaged.   

 

2010-10-17_153.JPG

2010-10-17_149.JPG

2010-10-17_136.JPG

2010-10-17_138.JPG

2010-10-17_152.JPG

 

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello Nick,

 

here is a view of the flight deck layout for HMS Invincible in 1981.  The only changes were the removal of the helo spots.  Ignore the text in black, those are just for information and were not present on the actual deck.

spacer.png

 

There is also a decent WiP build here.

 

cheers,
Mike

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...
On 10/31/2022 at 12:00 PM, bootneck said:

Hello Nick,

 

here is a view of the flight deck layout for HMS Invincible in 1981.  The only changes were the removal of the helo spots.  Ignore the text in black, those are just for information and were not present on the actual deck.

spacer.png

 

There is also a decent WiP build here.

 

cheers,
Mike

Fascinating (to me, anyway - I need to get out more) how the CVS deck markings evolved over time - presumably as experience with the class grew.  The 5 helo spots in Mike’s picture had grown to 10 by the time I served in Ark Royal 5 years later, and the runway spots had moved inboard; the way they’re shown above suggests that they envisaged the centre line / tailwheel of the Sea King to be on the outer edge of the runway.  That would put your port mainwheel pretty adjacent to the deck edge, which doesn’t sound that great for night ops.  By my era the inner edge of the runway stripe was the aiming point.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for your help guys. For those who made it to SMW, you’ll have seen the results under the FRS1s and GR3s on the Harrier SIG’s “Harriers in the Roaring Forties” Falklands 40th Anniversary display. 
 

Calm seas.

 

Nick

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 9 months later...

Currently finishing off the Revell (Dragon) 1:700 kit of Invincible and want to depict her as she appeared on return from the Falkland Islands campaign in 1982. Ships aren't my forte having only ever attempted a 1:600 model of HMS Hood before, but this was a recent birthday prezzie from my Daughter and Son in Law, so I'd like to make a reasonable job of it. At this scale I realise it's only going to ever be an approximation to the real McCoy, but I might do a future refit using the Atlantic Models ATEM 70008 Invincible Class A/C Carrier PE Detail Set if/when it becomes available. What Hood taught me is that ships change a lot during there service career through re-fits and I've rather belatedly noted some discrepancies in this kit's configuration for the ship in 1982. Dragon appear to have simplified the parts design by using the outboard vent patterning for both sides of the funnels (Is that a correct term for a modern gas turbine powered ship?), so I've corrected the number and position (5 low down) of the inboard side vents on the funnels by filling and re-scribing but I'll live with some of the other iffy hull details.

 

However, I am a bit confused by some of the pictures of the real thing and 3 view drawings of the ship on-line that show it's configuration during the Falkland Islands war in 1982. I'm hoping that knowledgeable others on here, including perhaps some who served on-board, will be able to set me straight. 

 

There are some shots on-line of Invincible heading south in heavy seas that appear to show that the funnel and mast tops were not in fact painted black, but were the same colour as the hull. Photos of the ship coming into Portsmouth on its return from the campaign show the funnel top surfaces were completely black by then and there appears to be patchy black soot deposition on the rear of the foremast top and the front of the main mast top. Would I be right in thinking therefore that the black funnel tops and mast tops seen around this time were entirely due to soot deposition? My working assumption is that the funnel tops and mast tops were only painted black after the ship returned from the South Atlantic, perhaps because the top brass didn't like the ship's looking so sooty up top?

 

In the same heading south photo, there appear to be two large horizontally cylindrical objects on the starboard foredeck . They look like they could be oil or fuel tanks (Avtur?) to me, but they aren't represented by any kit parts and don't appear on any profile drawings that I've seen on line. Does anyone know what they are, their approximate size, location and colour?

 

Finally, what were the correct colour schemes for the ship's small boats during the south Atlantic campaign? In one of the colour photos of Invincible returning to Portsmouth, they appear to have white uppers and white hull tops, navy blue mid stripes and grey bottoms but it's hard to say. Is this right?

 

Nick already kindly supplied me with the HARRIER Special Interest Group – IPMS(UK) fact sheet on Invincible's deck markings for my SHAR build and I've removed the overly beefy embossed line markings from the deck and have ordered some Fantasy Printshop FP550 0.5mm wide white pin stripe water slide decals to mark it up. Still a shade too wide at 1:700 scale, but they're the thinnest I could find.

 

Many thanks in advance for any help or advice you can give.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, NellyV said:

iThere are some shots on-line of Invincible heading south in heavy seas that appear to show that the funnel and mast tops were not in fact painted black, but were the same colour as the hull. Photos of the ship coming into Portsmouth on its return from the campaign show the funnel top surfaces were completely black by then and there appears to be patchy black soot deposition on the rear of the foremast top and the front of the main mast top. Would I be right in thinking therefore that the black funnel tops and mast tops seen around this time were entirely due to soot deposition? My working assumption is that the funnel tops and mast tops were only painted black after the ship returned from the South Atlantic, perhaps because the top brass didn't like the ship's looking so sooty up top?

 

Hi NellyV

 

You are correct, in that the funnel tops were overpainted grey for the journey south.  On return, they had become blackened by months of heavy soot deposits.  They weren't repainted black "because the top brass didn't like the ship's looking so sooty up top" but to revert them to the standard peacetime colours.   The ship's boats were as you say, white and blue and, I think the boat decks were non-slip green.

 

I presume that this is the photo you are referring to?

spacer.png

 

cheers,

Mike

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, bootneck said:

 

Hi NellyV

 

You are correct, in that the funnel tops were overpainted grey for the journey south.  On return, they had become blackened by months of heavy soot deposits.  They weren't repainted black "because the top brass didn't like the ship's looking so sooty up top" but to revert them to the standard peacetime colours.   The ship's boats were as you say, white and blue and, I think the boat decks were non-slip green.

 

I presume that this is the photo you are referring to?

spacer.png

 

cheers,

Mike

Thanks Mike. Yes that's the return photo I was referring to and below is what I take to be an outbound one. As I knew already that the aircraft had their hi vis markings overpainted on the cruise south, it certainly makes sense to me now that anything on the ship that could stand out on the horizon got a spot of grey paint also. Got any ideas on what the two dark cylindrical objects on the starboard bow were in the second B&W photo below. They don't look to be integral to the ship structure, but appear to be mounted on trestles? I imagine they could also have been removed before the ships return to port, so I might just ignore them.

QuVZSEQ.jpgvL8aNto.jpg

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, NellyV said:

In the same heading south photo, there appear to be two large horizontally cylindrical objects on the starboard foredeck . They look like they could be oil or fuel tanks (Avtur?) to me, but they aren't represented by any kit parts and don't appear on any profile drawings that I've seen on line. Does anyone know what they are, their approximate size, location and colour?

Yokohama Fenders, google for images, they came in various sizes, scale to what looks right in photos, colour as for vehicle tyres (which are often chained around them to prevent wear to the actual fender)

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Dave Swindell said:

Yokohama Fenders, google for images, they came in various sizes, scale to what looks right in photos, colour as for vehicle tyres (which are often chained around them to prevent wear to the actual fender)

Cheers Dave, would never have thought of that. I've a lot to learn.

8 hours ago, Dave Swindell said:

Yokohama Fenders, google for images, they came in various sizes, scale to what looks right in photos, colour as for vehicle tyres (which are often chained around them to prevent wear to the actual fender)

 

9 hours ago, bootneck said:

I think they are large rubber fenders, for going alongside none standard docks, or possibly other vessels.

 

Mike

Great.Thanks.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 5 months later...

I have the book the Harrier carriers  INVINCIBLE ,and some very good reliable drawings of her and lots of good photos , I was told those big black things on the focsale were tanks ????? not sure if its  distilled water , she did have a few more FRS1 aboard  or Jet fuel  but there were two of them and they are large  My vince is 1/72 if I can help drop me a line  

Vince

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's a superb looking model Chris, congratulations! Which period of her life are you depicting Invincible in? If Falklands, then for your FRS1s please do not use the Airfix 1/72 kits - they're poor! The Italeri / Esci / Fuji ones are much better. Please drop me a PM with your email address in it if you need more info on the 801 NAS FRS1s on Invincible during the Falklands War and some photos of Invincible on departure and return. 

 

As for the tanks, Sea Harriers used distilled water injected into the engine during hovering and vertical landings to help the engine run at high power for longer. They were both fitted when the carrier left Portsmouth on 5 April 1982.

 

All the best

 

Nick

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Nick sent you a PM  before I saw this  sorry its 1982  that will go with Plymouth 1982 Glamorgan 1982 Ambuscade , Fearless ,and Onyx  just a few of the Falklands  vets Built over here  also Fife and Cleopatra are around  Two  Hermes in 1/72 one in Perth the other is in Adelaide

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...