1939 Lehrgescwhader 2 Bf109 - red, green or yellow nose?

[WLJayne]

Hi all,

 

I'm interested in doing a Bf109 of Lehrgeswchader 2 circa Sept 1939 during the invasion of Poland, and looking at photos and profiles I'm left scratching my head a bit. One profile shows a rather fetching red nose, the other green. However these photographs were likely taken using orthochromatic film which produces some odd greyscale tones, and I'm left wondering whether the nose may even be yellow. Can anyone point me in the direction of any sources that might give a hint? I did see an interview with F/O Peter Brown of 611 and 41 Sqn, and he describes seeing Bf109s with yellow noses in action over Dunkirk. So would it be possible that some units were painted like this some months earlier in 1939? I had until now associated yellow nosed 109s with mid to late summer 1940. Any ideas? Thanks!

 

Will.

 

EDIT: Just noticed that AZ model boxed this as a red nose on the box art but suggest red, yellow or grey on the painting guide. Interesting.

 

Edited August 24, 2022 by WLJayne

[Black Knight]

If that is Red 15, the nose should be the same tone of grey, On Ortho film red ends up near black in tone. So maybe Red 15 was photographed on Pan film. But either way the nose is a different tone, therefore perhaps a different colour, green or maybe even blue

[Graham Boak]

I don't think that the Germans used ortho film, though I don't know just what they did use.  Red would indeed look black on ortho, and there doesn't seem to be a lot of evidence of this.  The individual numbers would be white, black, or red, and many photos show a grey tone which can only be red - as in the photo above.  Although he cowling does appear to closely match the grey tone of the number, it also appears to match the lighter of the greens on upper wing, so I fear this is probably what is present.  Perhaps a replacement cowling only partly painted?   Unusual, but probably not exciting.

 

Yellow was sometimes used for the individual number, and this does appear darker (at least sometimes) on ortho.  But would it need a white surround to the number?  A yellow cowling would be seen, if a bit later than the date credited to the photo, but my vote would be against this.

[StevieD]

Hard to see how red would have been used given there were friendly fire incidents in the opening days of the Polish campaign where Luftwaffe pilots mistook red codes on their own aircraft for the red in the Polish markings. I could be wrong but yellow seems likely...

 

 

https://www.ipmsstockholm.se/home/camouflage-and-markings-of-messerschmitt-me-109/

[StevieD]

Just found my reference to the friendly fire incidents...

 

‘Flack mistook a Heinkel He 46 and then a Stuka for enemy aircraft. Alerted by a red letter on the upper surface of the Stuka’s wing Flack’s apparent failure to notice the black Balkenkreuz thinly edged in white alongside, it was proof of the inadequacy of the Luftwaffe’s nation insignia when seen in plan view. Flack’s later reporting of the incident led to such markings being overpainted in black – later still in the Russian campaign Luftwaffe unite eschewed red Staffel markings to avoid confusion with the Soviet star.’

 

From ‘Bf110 Zerstorer  aces of WW2’ Osprey Aviation

[JWM]

What if it is RLM 62? Some BF 109 used in Sapin are shown having from top one color - RLM 62.  So perhaps initially whole machine was painted from top with this color, the individual name was painted on this and then machine got two tone green scheme but to save the name the engine covers were not painted?

Regards

J-W

 

[Graham Boak]

However, Bf.109s in Germany were painted in 70/71 not the colours used in Spain, from the beginning.  Experimental prototypes apart, of course,  And the earlier colours were long gone (other than on some export aircraft) before the E appeared.

[WLJayne]

53 minutes ago, JWM said:

What if it is RLM 62? Some BF 109 used in Sapin are shown having from top one color - RLM 62.  So perhaps initially whole machine was painted from top with this color, the individual name was painted on this and then machine got two tone green scheme but to save the name the engine covers were not painted?

Regards

J-W

 

 

I don't know if this aircraft served in Spain, but I do like the suggestion of a green nose left to preserve the name. @Stevie D makes excellent points about the friendly fire and red, as nice as it looks I just can't see any reason why this aircraft alone would have had a big red nose, there were red stripes seen in 1940 but I think a painting anomaly of an otherwise nondescript colour seems more plausible. I may just include it in the profile notes "nose colour uncertain, red, green, grey and yellow have been suggested." Can't say fairer than that really can you? I'll probably show it as green on the profile though, unless we can find more evidence. 

[Black Knight]

I don't think its yellow. The fuel filler triangle is yellow with a white border. That yellow is still very light. Lighter than the cowling

There also seems to be a coloured stripe across the top of the fin & rudder, in similar tone to the nose cowling

[Jochen Barett]

21 hours ago, WLJayne said:

Hi all,

 

I'm interested in doing a Bf109 of Lehrgeswchader 2 circa Sept 1939 during the invasion of Poland, and looking at photos and profiles I'm left scratching my head a bit. One profile shows a rather fetching red nose, the other green. However these photographs were likely taken using orthochromatic film which produces some odd greyscale tones, and I'm left wondering whether the nose may even be yellow. +++

Panchromatic film was invented around 1902 and in widespread use in Germany in the late 30ies. I fail to prove they were sold "more than orthographic" but Agfa Isopan F and Zeiss Ikon Panchrom were readily available.

e.g. https://www.ebay.com/itm/185479370631

and https://www.ebay.de/itm/125293889005

(yes, these two past 1939 but still "pretty old")

 

Unless the yellow in the fuel triangle looks "funny" (dark) or there is other evidence I'd consider any German B&W WWII pic "taken on panchromatic film" before guessing otherwise.

 

In this pic of "red" 15 the sky is rather "white" (not really giving a clue), but any time you see the sky's blue darker than the white" clouds, go for panchromatic film, probably with a yellow filter in front of the lens.

In case the picture quality is generally good and you don't see the difference between the yellow triangle and white outline, the guess is: "yellow filter used"

 

An example here:

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109G/JG27/images/Messerschmitt-Bf-109G6-1.JG27-White-11-France-1944-01.jpg

 

We "know" some of the expected colors rather well. We know the JG 27 unit emblem, we know the fuel triangle and we know the red cross for the first aid kit and judging by the unit, we draw the conclusion to expect a green Reichsverteidigungsband (and look at all the tiny stencils so late in the war!)

 

 

More pronounced white-yellow difference in fuel triangle? Check this one:

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109G/JG27/images/Messerschmitt-Bf-109G6R6-9.JG27-Yellow-1-Peter-Werfft-Mar-1944-01.jpg

 

Orthocromatic film and Bf 109? Maybe in the UK? (MAYBE! Red (expected) in unit emblem rather "black", blue (expected) in unit emblem rather white, fuel triange "pronounced" darkish)

https://previews.agefotostock.com/previewimage/medibigoff/0b638b3146354fe396156a6447033999/mev-11951310.jpg

Edited August 25, 2022 by Jochen Barett
embarrassing typo

[Touvdal]

In the book Die Jagdfliegerverbände der Deutschen Luftwaffe 1934 bis 1945, Teil 1, on page 432 the is an other photo of "Peter" taken from the front of the other side. This indicates that the a/c is standard 70/71/65.

 

There is also the photo showen in the thread, but in better quality, and it is evident that with the engine running a lot of dust is in the air due to dry ground, her it can be seen that part of the left wing has the same color tone as the engine cover. 

 

There are also other photos take during September 1939, with white painted personal emblem on the engine cover, and non indicates other than 70/71/65.

 

Cheers

Jes

[WLJayne]

@Jochen Barett that's amazing information thank you so much!! I think in this case we can safely rule out yellow, as it would be very bright if taken with the film as you describe. @Touvdal I'll try to find that book, thanks for the suggestion! 

 

It does seem like the red of the number is very close to the grey of the nose, the suggestion of RLM 62 is also interesting. This really is a very tough one!

Edited August 25, 2022 by WLJayne

[Phoenix44]

19 hours ago, Jochen Barett said:

Panchromatic film was invented around 1902 and in widespread use in Germany in the late 30ies. I fail to prove they were sold "more than orthographic" but Agfa Isopan F and Zeiss Ikon Panchrom were readily available.

e.g. https://www.ebay.com/itm/185479370631

and https://www.ebay.de/itm/125293889005

(yes, these two past 1939 but still "pretty old")

 

Unless the yellow in the fuel triangle looks "funny" (dark) or there is other evidence I'd consider any German B&W WWII pic "taken on panchromatic film" before guessing otherwise.

 

In this pic of "red" 15 the sky is rather "white" (not really giving a clue), but any time you see the sky's blue darker than the white" clouds, go for panchromatic film, probably with a yellow filter in front of the lens.

In case the picture quality is generally good and you don't see the difference between the yellow triangle and white outline, the guess is: "yellow filter used"

 

An example here:

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109G/JG27/images/Messerschmitt-Bf-109G6-1.JG27-White-11-France-1944-01.jpg

 

We "know" some of the expected colors rather well. We know the JG 27 unit emblem, we know the fuel triangle and we know the red cross for the first aid kit and judging by the unit, we draw the conclusion to expect a green Reichsverteidigungsband (and look at all the tiny stencils so late in the war!)

 

 

More pronounced white-yellow difference in fuel triangle? Check this one:

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109G/JG27/images/Messerschmitt-Bf-109G6R6-9.JG27-Yellow-1-Peter-Werfft-Mar-1944-01.jpg

 

Orthocromatic film and Bf 109? Maybe in the UK? (MAYBE! Red (expected) in unit emblem rather "black", blue (expected) in unit emblem rather white, fuel triange "pronounced" darkish)

https://previews.agefotostock.com/previewimage/medibigoff/0b638b3146354fe396156a6447033999/mev-11951310.jpg

All very true and well set out but I would suggest that's a pretty poor "secondary" reproduction of the original photo (the one of Red 15), hence the very bleached sky and very dark object. I suspect quite a few photos that appeared in publications from the 1950s to 1970s at least are pretty poor in quality and have caused a fair bit of confusion.

[Jochen Barett]

Agreed, it would be nice to have the original negative and do a real print and a scan and see what can be done.

 

On the other hand: Do "grab" (copy) the Peter / Red 15 above, load image into IrfanView (or any other image processing software), cut away the profile and take a close look at the pic (at 100% image size or maybe even 200%). Maybe even "Convert to Grayscale".

 

The histogram looks "strange" (grab the JG 27 shot and see a totally different histogram), yet Peter's pilot's jacket and skin is a nice grey tone, and sampling the first aid kit's red cross gives a different reading from black an the "15". Main wheel cover is interesting too (not just "black in the shadow"), so the "vegetation" on the ground (whatever kind of weed it is) must be really dark. To me it seems the plane is done in 70/71 (wing and fuselage) but the enginde cowling seems to be lighter than the rest and still darker than the "15" (and the exhausts arre darker than the cowling). And we can see the engine lubricant triangle (IIRC "brown") and a hint of the plane's maker's plate - but no "yelow" in the fuel triangle. We have seen worse picture quality before.

 

Wot? Engine oil triangle? (#57 shows position of filler cap):

https://history.scale-model-aircraft.com/wp-content/uploads/Messerschmitt-Bf-109E-Cutaway.jpg

 

nicely painted example (triangle below filler cap):

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6e/Messerschmitt_Bf109E-4-B_‘4101_-_Black_12’_(DG200)_(33115891765).jpg

 

Would I dare to name the colors of "Red 15"'s cowling or even name the color of the "15"? No.

But I wouldn't hesitate to "see" 65/70/71 - and a "Peter the red nosed red 15" surely would look cool.

Just remember to chose model paint representing 70 and 71 with very little contrast.

Edited August 28, 2022 by Jochen Barett
missing l in black and other typos

[WLJayne]

@Jochen Barett again you make excellent points. As with all the profiles and decals I am making, my aim is always "plausible" if I can't be certain, and I think as you say "Peter the red nosed red 15" is cool. At least this way thanks to you and the others in this thread, I am reassured that I did my due diligence and didn't just blindly follow a well known profile that is inaccurate (as is the case for many, many Spitfire Mk.1 profiles on the internet!) So I am happy enough to settle on red as the suggested colour, and a lot of the modellers in my discord channel also like this idea because it stands out from the other schemes.

 

The other scheme in the box will be one from the Condor Legion :).

 

[Touvdal]

Here is the other photo from Die Jagdfliegerverbände der Deutschen Luftwaffe 1934 bis 1945, Teil 1, take from the front. showing the propeller wich is 70 by standard, also a lange part of the cowling/spinner, that matches the color of the propellerblade, so 70 it is on the cowling with a white "Peter".

 

I have to this date never seen any evidence that a Bf 109 had a red cowling, the closes is the Red/yellow tulip used by JG 52, at the end of the war.

 

 

Cheers

Jes

Edited August 29, 2022 by Touvdal

[WLJayne]

@Touvdal Jes that's absolutely brilliant!! This is why it's so important for designers to get input from the community. Several brains and libraries are better than one, thank you so much!

[JackG]

The asisbiz site has a second identical but different quality photo

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109E/LG2.html

 

So have cropped that and added it third line in the comparison below.   They all seem to have different degrees of manipulation (dark edges) around some of the lettering.    Could just be the digital process, or was the photo touched up, or was the the cowl repainted after 'Peter" was already in place?

 

[WLJayne]

Another teaser; I'm going Helmut Wick's "Double Chevron" - that patch on the tail would be yellow like the nose I'm guessing? Some profiles show it in white. But you can clearly see the white victory bars.