Which paint system to chose? - can be acrylic or enamel

[SprueMan]

Hi all good people

 

I have, since forever, been suing Humbrol paints.

However, they are getting to me, and I would like to change. Question is to what?

 

The problems I have with them is they are thick and not color stable. Even new tins, both the paint itself, and the layer you paint on comes on rather thick on the model. The metalic colors are particularly thick, and I have given up anticipating that white is going to be white and not cream and the black matt and satin never seem to keep the same matt-ness and satin-ness throughout. (Each tin is different) And even the thick ones do not cover very well.

 

Primarily, I am going to use the new paints for brush painting for small and medium sized surfaces.

I usually spray large areas using Tamiya TS sprays, and will most likely continue to do so.

However, I may want to try to paint medium sized areas (whatever medium is..) using brushes.

 

As I rarely get time to have long building sessions, airbrushing is not really on the cards sadly.

I usually get an hour or so at the modeling table, so its very appealing to simply go on the terrace and do the single pass "psst" with the rattlecan than it is to set up a spray booth, play with air and paint pressures, thinner combinations, nozzle distance etc. etc.

 

I have bought a few Ammo/MIG acrylic bottles, but, perhaps mostly due to me being used to enamel painting, I have not yet had good experiences with them.

[Ngantek]

Humbrol do seem to have had variability in recent years. I would say, make sure you mix the tin properly (no doubt you already are!), and thin your paints before applying with a brush; they paint too thick straight out of the pot; and apply in many thin layers. I've had mixed results thinning with cheap white spirit compared with dedicated enamel thinners, but everyone has differing opinions on this. There are some excellent humbrol brush painters on the forums, who are able to get airbush-like smoothness (Chris @bigbadbadge care to weigh in  ?). Enamels are generally one of the best options for brush painting if you're comfortable with the smell and drying times. Colourcoats are excellent enamels if you're becoming disillusioned with humbrols; Xtracolours are another option, I don't know a great deal about them. 

 

There are many options when it comes to good brushable water-based acrylics; I see vallejo, Ammo/Mig, lifecolor used a fair amount on these forums; even humbrol has improved their acrylics and the new ones are apparently not bad, I'll leave others to comment on these combinations.

 

I have the same issues as you re: limited time and airbrushing. My approach has tended to be long periods of inactivity while I'm waiting for a large enough session to become available, but haven't trusted my ability to get results with the brush. I might copy you and do a few models 'brushed' that can keep ticking along while waiting for such a gap to open up for airbrush models!

 

Cheers,

Andy

[bigbadbadge]

Hi Andy

 

I am not sure about the acrylics at all as never used them after trying to brush Tamiya paints and did not go well !!!

Sorry had pressed send prematurely whilst out on a heritage railway, when I edited, lost signal and wiped out my edit so going to enjoy my day and add later

Chris

[FalkeEins]

1 hour ago, SprueMan said:

 

 

I have, since forever, been suing Humbrol paints.

 

 

..gosh ..sounds a bit drastic...(sorry, couldn't resist..)

 

but yes, know what you mean about the airbrush - another dedicated rattle can user for large areas...and small ones if you can be asked to mask (Luftwaffe theatre bands in white and yellow)

If not using Humbrol then I use Xtracolor which I like - they are supposedly airbrush ready so brush paint rather thinly. I haven't bought any Colourcoats since they were owned by Sovereign (?).  Occasional Tamiya user ..but never brush them.

[ckw]

33 minutes ago, Ngantek said:

Colourcoats are excellent enamels if you're becoming disillusioned with humbrols; Xtracolours are another option, I don't know a great deal about them. 

Of the 2 I would say colourcoats are the better option for brush painting BUT as you are not in the UK, getting hold of them may not be so easy ... and certainly expensive!

 

I'm not a fan of brushing with acrylics - obviously it can be done, and done well but requires a different methodology to using enamels. 

 

Recently I have tried a couple of tins of Revell enamel - simply becuase they were the only thing available locally in the colours I needed. Pleasantly surprised - a bit thick, but easily thinned, Brushed very nicely. Of course having only tried a couple of tins I can't comment on the consistency of the product.

 

Cheers

 

Colin

[Graham Boak]

There is a small cheap Badger power tool that you can use for stirring paint in tine like Humbrol.  This is much more effective than manual stirring and helps enormously.  I (should) add that even Humbrol paint is not really ideal for use direct from the tin, and should always be thinned (outside of the tin) with a few drops of thinner.  Probably you know  this already.

 

For your other problems, I know of no solution except shift to another paint.  I can recommend the glossy Xtracolour, and strongly recommend the satin Colourcoats from Sovereign Hobby.   Also available is Phoenix Precision Paints, but I have not used enough of these to judge.  I do have several of the original Precision Paints and these were good.  The great benefit all these have over Humbrol is accuracy of the intended colour, although no range is perfect and Xtracolour have been accused of some variations.  Personally I'd advise Coloucoats, and especially their naphtha thinner.  These paints do smell less than Humbrol and the naphtha thinner is much less noticeable.  It can also be used with the other options mentioned.

 

I agree that despite their wide availability and rapid drying properties, water-based acrylics do not like being brushed, usually come over-thinned anyway for airbrushers,   As commented on by several modellers, they are not as durable.  Like most things, this is argued, and certainly is helped by using a primer.  For brush painting they are not ideal (by a considerable margin)   I have used the Airfix examples that came in pots fir the Dornier/Defiant double set, and found then entirely suitable, but I've not used them over large areas and other users seem to dislike them.  More recently acrylic lacquers have appeared, and these appear much more suitable and durable but being cellulose based smell even more strongly than enamels.  Strictly these should not be used as an overcoat to eanmels but having used some Mr. Hobby over long-cured Humbrol on model tanks, I had no problems.  (Still wouldn't recommend it.) 

 

Given that paint, despite its apparently high pricing, is still available fairly cheaper than kits, so it is always worthwhile trying things.  Hataka do a range of acrylics  intended for brush painting, usually available in sets but you can get them separately.  Mr. Hobby do an excellent range of the lacquers.

 

I suspect Revell paints may be more available for you.  I have only used their Aluminium, which I was impressed by, but cannot comment on their qualities.  However they do seem (understandably) to be very biased towards colours suitable for German subjects and otherwise limited if colour accuracy matters to you.

[Ngantek]

41 minutes ago, bigbadbadge said:

I am not sure about the acrylics at all as never used them after trying to brush Tamiya paints and did not go well !!!

Yes you're not alone on that one. With Tamiya acrylics (and Mr Hobby aqueous) I think it helps to think of as a separate paint type entirely, the behaviour and usage is so different to water/latex based acrylics. They certainly need some retarder to brush paint on larger areas but I've never had much success in spite of this. Have a nice day, sorry to create a lot of work for you!

 

19 minutes ago, ckw said:

Recently I have tried a couple of tins of Revell enamel

Ahh yes I'd forgotten about revell enamels. They're often readily available. 

[Casey]

I am using acrylics almost exclusively

 

Here is what I posted in April:

 

The main update I can add to that is that new Gen II Acrylics from Humbrol seem okay, but I never had a chance to thoroughly test them. All the dropper bottles I ever got from Humbrol had no "Gen II" on them and they were rather bad.

 

Painting with Acrylics is bit different than enamels, most people coming to acrylics world think "Dry to touch = cured", which is far from truth. While you can touch freshly dry acrylic model very gently, if you add some masking or in Tamiya case - apply next layer of paint by brush - the paint will not stay on the model. That gives impression that acrylics paints are like school paints for kids Give them time. Dry acrylic paint means only the curing process had started. I leave models at least for 24h before masking.

 

Edited August 24, 2022 by Casey

[bigbadbadge]

Hi all, sorry , had issues with signal in deepest rural Kent earlier whilst out on a lovely Heritage Railway.

 

I always brush paint enamels unless doing a civil plane where I will use a can of acrylic white spray paint.  

We used to have Trainer yellow in Humbrol acrylics spray cans but this for some mad reason is no longer available!!!

I enjoy the painting process enormously and relish the challenge to get a model looking like it has been spray painted, although I am not sure I have succeeded yet, however have come close.  Favourite schemes are TSS, aluminium and yellow aircraft, I find it very therapeutic. 

I lways thin the paint slightly with Colourcoats Naptha thinners or Humbrol thinners (I do use white spirits for oil washes) and usually depending on colour end up doing around 3 coats for TSS and Silver and between 5-7 for yellow.  

Once thinned the enamels flow wonderfully,  I have tried Revel and am not a fan as had limited success, but Humbrol and Colourcoats are both my go to paints.  I know the new tins of Humbrol can vary in quality as already mentioned but perseverance usually pays off for me.

 

I always leave a minimum of 12 hours between coats so a model will always take longer than spraying or airbrushing it. I always have more than one on the go so can keep busy.

 

I have never been able to airbrush as never had the space to do it and when I modelled in the loft I was over the entrances to the kids bedrooms so daren't even try and so I have stuck with the brush painting.

 

Chris

 

 

 

[binbrook87]

I occasionally brush paint acrylics and favour two brands... Vallejo and Revell Aqua without question the best in my opinion.

 

Vallejo have a huge choice of colours in either Model Color (thicker needs thinning with water or Vallejo thinners) or Model Air (thinner...brush paint straight from bottle but needs 2-3 coats). Just be careful as their colour matches are not always accurate and i tended to use others colours after trial and error.

 

Revell are very thick but when thinned with water brush paint really really well. Downside is the choice of colours are limited and the paint tin seals are hopeless and the paint can become unusable after only a few uses. Best to decant the paint into an alternative bottle or container.

 

I've also used Mig but didn't like it as much for brush painting.

 

Tamiya... terrible for brush.

 

Mr Hobby Aqueous a little better than Tamiya but still not great.

 

Xtracrylix...great colour matching (probably the best out there) but can be difficult to brush paint.

 

If it was me I'd stick to Vallejo and Revell Aqua.

 

Hope that helps 👍

[Troy Smith]

11 hours ago, bigbadbadge said:

 

I am not sure about the acrylics at all as never used them after trying to brush Tamiya paints and did not go well

 

33 minutes ago, binbrook87 said:

Tamiya... terrible for brush.

A myth. They brush just fine, but you do need to think them with a little water with a dash of flow improver.

used neat, they don't work, they just drag up the paint you just applied,  a little water added makes then behave very well. 

Use a small flat brush. 

 

13 hours ago, SprueMan said:

perhaps mostly due to me being used to enamel painting, I have not yet had good experiences with them.

@PlaStix  is the chap for acrylic brushing

see his video

https://youtu.be/QwdZtF_dpDY

Thinned, flat brush, brush out, keep adding layers.

 

as has been mentioned, acrylic does not stick to plastic the way enamel does,  it basically forms a film, which being thin, is fragile.

As mentioned by @Casey  it also need to cure.   But, I find it work well to add another coat as soon as you can, which is usually minutes, and you can build up the paint fast.  Then let cure.   

I find it works fine, everything i have complete on here is brush acrylic.  

 

If you expect them to be enamels, you will be disappointed,  they are not the same.    I like using Tamiya as a primer, (it's a bit 'hotter' than Vallejo) and then Vallejo over.

eg https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235107668-pk-29-skyhawk/#elControls_4418161_menu

Note, I don't know if these are the right names, but ot all acrylic are the same.  You get what i think as latex type, Vallejo, revell Aqua, Xtrcylix,  thin with water/flow improver,  (Isopropyl can make into jelly) and laquer type, Tamiya and Gunze,Aqueous,  still water thinnablealcohol thinnable,and also laquer thinnable.

the two types are not intermixable.

 

I'm used to using acrylic, I use them for most DIY jobs,   and i know a house painter who dislikes them.   I recently had use some oil based paint, it works very well,  but the solvents made me feel sick, and was wearing disposable gloves.  

 

Watch the linked vid,  and try the method, you do need a flat brush, normal brushes just don't work as well.

 

Also note my sig line....  what works for me may not for you.   

 

35 minutes ago, binbrook87 said:

Xtracrylix...great colour matching (probably the best out there)

NO. I  have often read that Xrtracrylix were good matches for ww2 RAF, they are not,  if the RAF museum paint chips are to be believed.

There are 'worse'  matches, but I have not so far found an acrylic paint range that does match so far (AK Interactive, Hataka, Xtracrylix, Tamiya, ) Vallejo have some that are near, but you need to find them by testing, not their stated matches

All the main colours were quite 'off' , Dark earth, Medium Sea grey, Sky,  Dark Green for sure.   

I still have a part done Arma Hurricane that needs stripping because of this....  

It's a right pain in the backside....  I've made some good mixes in both Tamiya  and Vallejo,   but it can be a slog getting there,  doing drop mixes, brushing out,  comparing, adjusting ....  

 

 

[Casey]

7 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

I have not so far found an acrylic paint range that does match so far (AK Interactive, Hataka, Xtracrylix, Tamiya, ) Vallejo have some that are near, but you need to find them by testing, not their stated matches

All the main colours were quite 'off' , Dark earth, Medium Sea grey, Sky,  Dark Green for sure. 

Funny you mention that.

 

I am working on version 2 of my recipes for RAF matches. The recipe for Azure Blue is one of then - I posted it in this thread

 

 

Edited August 25, 2022 by Casey

[Casey]

8 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

All the main colours were quite 'off' , Dark earth, Medium Sea grey, Sky,  Dark Green for sure. 

 

Here is a teaser, using (water based) Golden Fluid Acrylics - https://goldenpaints.com/products/colors/fluid

 

RAF002 - Dark Earth - Flat
    Suggested using total of 11 parts (mass) (DE00: 0.21)    Expected: #78634E, Simulated: #78644E
        Bone Black: 4
        Diarylide Yellow: 1
        Transparent Red Iron Oxide: 3
        Titan Buff: 3

                Optional 11 parts of Golden Fluid Matte Medium for Flat finish

 

I think it is pretty close.

 

I am also working on making my own paint chips labels to be used on bottles of mixed paints. I airbrushed the paint over a pre-cut round square sticky label and peel it off, it does not leave super clean edge that way but it does the trick and works on bottles well.

 

Edited August 25, 2022 by Casey

[Ray_W]

I no longer use enamels. My go to paints are lacquers supplemented with aqueous types both alcohol solvent and vinyl acrylics. However, if I need to go to a less smelly solution and get forced to move away completely from lacquers (which I love) then I would fall back to my experience with the aqueous paints:

 

Alcohol Solvent Aqueous

I can hand brush the Tamiya and Gunze Aqueous Hobby Color range without issue but need to thin with water and usually add a little retarder (currently using Tamiya Paint Retarder Acrylic) if the ambient conditions demand. For example, in hot/dry conditions. Both types spray beautifully using Mr Color Levelling Thinner (a lacquer thinner). So, if you want to use one brand only then Gunze's Aqueous Hobby Color, which has a wider selection and better color matches, is my choice. These paint types provide a robust paint better able to withstand handling and masking than the Vinyls, in my opinion. Hand painting is OK in my experience and as proven by @PlaStix on his many builds. For my detail hand painting I still prefer Vallejo. 

 

Vinyl Aqueous

My preferred vinyl acrylics are Vallejo Model Color/Panzer Color and Lifecolor. You can thin the Vallejo and still get excellent coverage with its strong pigment and self-levelling (look up its use for model figure glazes) and Lifecolor out of the jar (don't be horrified with how thin the initial coat is) builds up beautifully, self-levels and takes a mask better in my view than the Vallejo. On the latter point, I never mask in under 24 hours (why rush?) and always apply the paints over an undercoat. I have an airbrush so use Gunze's Mr Finishing Surfacer. If I need an aqueous alternative then Stynylrez. If no airbrush then a rattle can undercoat option can be employed (I note the OP already uses these).  I prefer Lifecolor for the bulk brush painting (or airbrush). They have a very broad and accurate colour selection. Vallejo for detail painting - colour density, self-levelling, beautiful fine lines and picking detail. 

 

Of course, what follows on from this is a separate discussion on compatibility with varnishes/washes/clear coats. Many threads already on this subject.

 

Things I have not tried and would like to - Mission Models and AK 3rd Generation.

 

I believe the most important step, whether airbrush or paint brush, and irrespective of the paint system, is the correct thinner and thinning ratio plus a touch of patience in building up thin coats as required. Every system has its own unique characteristics that may require some massaging. Your technique may not work as well when you jump to another system without some experimentation. 

 

Ray

[SprueMan]

Thanks for all the good suggestions, comments and observations!

Certainly a lot to think about.

 

So, it appears that painting with acrypics is more difficult than with enamels.

 

Can you mix acrylics of various brands together?

Or paint one branded paint on top of another? (ie, so you can mix & match between different brands?

 

[Black Knight]

55 minutes ago, SprueMan said:

Can you mix acrylics of various brands together?

With most you can. I've mixed Humbrol. Revell, Vallejo, Citadel, MP, MrHobby, Tamiya and others together to make colours or shades I want

 

55 minutes ago, SprueMan said:

Or paint one branded paint on top of another? (ie, so you can mix & match between different brands?

Yes you can

and there is myth that you cannot paint enamel over acrylic or acrylic over enamel; you can paint one over the other. Best to leave it to dry completely but I've painted one over the other before it completely dry/cured

And for certain effects I've painted acrylic onto wet enamel, or enamel onto wet acrylic.  I mostly do this for wood effects or for aeroplane exhausts