VC10 Number 2-New and Improved?

[David H]

Hi everybody,

 

For starters, i conflated the H.P. Victor with the VC10. It was the Victor that was called the "Iron Duck" , and not the VC10.

I have flagellated myself appropriately, and made the corrections where needed.

 

Most of you know that i recently finished my first airliner- the Roden 1/144th scale Super VC10.

For those of you who want to go directly to the end result, go here:

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235113603-iron-duck-final-report/#comment-4467887

 

And for those who wonder about how i go about building an airliner model (badly 🤣), go here:

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235103625-iron-duck/#comment-4279708

 

So Anyway....as G-ASGH was approaching completion, i went and did a thing.

Yes, i went and started another Roden Super VC10.

Some of you might be asking, "David in the name of God, WHY??"

Well the reason is because over the course of the build,  new information came to light on the VC10 that was received too late to implement on -ASGH, and there were some techniques/aspects to the build that i was either not satisfied with, or not documented appropriately at the time.

 

So, this thread won't go into the mind-numbing detail of IRON DUCK. Rather it's intended to expand on just the places where i (think) i can do things a little bit better and cleaner. It won't have quite as many photos or quite as many updates, but i think the information will still be useful.

 

The first thing that i decided to tackle were the fuselage windows.

As some of you know, they were something of a disaster on the first model, using the kit windows and then puttying over them with Tamiya putty (which then pulled out during the masking and painting phases). 

On this second model, i attempted to fill the windows from the inside using epoxy with tape on the outside to hold it in place. Sounded like a great idea in theory, but in practice i was left with numerous air bubbles which needed to be filled with CA after the tape was removed. The windows are now all filled and they are all flush... but i am still searching for the best, most perfect, most-can't-fail-sure-fire-way method to fill the windows.

 

Next up was the vertical fin. As with -ASGH, the halves were flat sanded on a piece of wet 320, but i was still left with gaps at the trailing edge of the rudder which were filled in by ramming strips of .005 sheet into the gaps with CA, and then block-sanding everything straight, thin, and flush.

 

I'm still looking for a method to "nail" the alignment of the stabilizers. This time i glued just the lower halves to the fin, turned the whole thing upside down and taped the stabs down onto two pieces of wood of equal thickness, assuring that the surfaces were at least on the same 3-dimensional plane. Once dry, i added the upper halves.

Next up came the engine nacelles. I learned too late in the game that the inner engine inlets were staggered slightly forward of the outboard ones. Not a huge amount, but enough to notice on close inspection. At the time, i felt the engine pylons were a little too thin in cross section, so i tried to thicken those up with a piece of .015 styrene. The end result of that wasn't very noticeable and it required slicing partway between the lower engine/pylon piece to fix some fit issues.

I would not do *that* again. However, extending the inboard intakes was worth the effort...

There's still quite a bit to be done with respect to panel lines and vents, drains, etc., but the major re engineering is all done.

Next up came the wings. Again, i cut off all of the locator pins and flat sanded the surfaces on wet 320. The leading edges come together just fine, but we still were left with the gap issues on the wing trailing edges...

However, with time, patience and the right tools, the trailing edge can be successfully rehabilitated and made presentable.

Fabricating the wing fences came next. This time, i made the saw cuts in the wings before gluing the halves together...

The fences are removable and can be left off the model until the painting stage. No longer in the way, where my fat fingers will blunder into them.

I used the same method of re-doing the wing attachment as on -ASGH, though i went with somewhat beefier rods in the rear spar area.

One of the things i learned late in my first build, (and i was not happy with either) were the gaps at the trailing edges of the wings at the fillet fairing. When the flaps are down, the innermost flap segment actually incorporates a small portion of the wing fillet, and there should not be any gaps there. Since my last major forays into gap filling with CA, i've expanded the technique somewhat to incorporate dental resin acrylic powder mixed into the CA.

Trust me when i say that the resin/CA composite sanded away quickly and easily.

That's all for the first installment. I'll report back when i'm finished installing and blending in the windscreen. I'm about halfway though that evolution right now.

Maybe i'll work on that Phantom for a little bit.....

 

Edited August 14, 2023 by David H
Iron Duck is the Victor, not the VC10.

[David H]

Okay, as promised it's time to discuss the windscreen, or canopy, or "cab", or whatever you want to call it.

I got pretty good results the first time around, but on G-ASGD, i modified my technique somewhat.

As i said many times before, the mating surfaces have to be sanded flat with a sanding stick, and while the fit of the cab isn't perfect, it gets considerably better with some TLC.

I washed the canopy, applied wax to the inside and i mounted the canopy with Mig AMMO glue this time, instead of Krystal-Kleer.

Next step, i used the masks provided in the kit to protect the windows for the tricky sanding that would follow.

Next step was to prime the cockpit cab and surrounding area with a high-contrast primer to find gaps, seams and where the bad ledges were.

After the silver paint was applied, but before i began sanding, i applied a narrow bead of CA along the joint of the "cab" and the upper fuselage crown, using a thick CA Glue Looper.

The Roden masks were just tough enough to protect the clear windows from almost all of the sanding. Some framework got obliterated in the lower aft corners but i consider that a small sacrifice.

Next, i removed the Roden masks, masked off around the perimeter of the cab with Tamiya Tape, and gave it a good polish with toothpaste (still a very acceptable rubbing compound).

Next came the Montex masks.

They're a little thicker than the kit provided ones, but they come off the backing sheet a little bit easier, and because they're black, the contrast makes em a bit easier to apply and align in place....especially the eyebrow windows.

With the exception of some panel line scribing on the belly, and more tactical hole drilling, that pretty much wraps things up for the fuselage. I might re-evaluate things when the photo etch shows up, but until then my next move might be to re-visit the engine nacelles, or do some tactical hole drilling in the wings.

Plus, i'm told there's a bigger, badder Buccaneer out on the streets.

As always, keep the letters and postcard coming!

[mark.au]

Some great general build tips there in addition to the learnings on this kit.  You must spend as much time on the WIP post as you do building.  I do appreciate the effort expended in producing WIPs like this one, those by @hendie, @TheBaron and @Anthony in NZ also come to mind.  I tend to be a bit lazy in mine by comparison.

[David H]

3 hours ago, mark.au said:

 You must spend as much time on the WIP post as you do building.  I do appreciate the effort expended in producing WIPs like this one, those by @hendie, @TheBaron and @Anthony in NZ also come to mind.  I tend to be a bit lazy in mine by comparison.

They were never intended to be *this* intensive, but it seems its just how things worked out....

 

[David H]

Hi everybody,

 

As part of our continuous product improvement programme, many of you know that i started a second Super VC10....

This began as something of an academic/ R&D effort to try out building techniques that evolved over the course of the first Super VC10, G-ASGH.

Well, there's been a recent development....

Those of you that have followed VC10 builds in the past know that the original BOAC/CUNARD logos were applied in gold foil, and the only decals that were available in foil came from Welsh Models (long unavailable).

When i built my VC10, i went with the gold printed decals that came with the 26 Decals kit and they look fine, but the lack of metallic gleam always kind of bothered me.

Well, that problem has been fixed.

i just got these in the mail this week and i sure was not disappointed!

i need to emphasize that these came from Airliner Hobby Supplies in Arizona and not Ray Charles at 26 decals, though he was definitely involved with the development.

Gold foil titles are also available for the 707 and 747.

 

-d-

[David H]

Hello there,

 

As some of you know, i'm in temporary housing right now and that has put some limits on what i can and can not do, model-building-wise.

 

However, three things i can do- Glue, Fill , and Sand!

 

With that in mind i packed along three projects that i could make headway on, while in my status as homeowner without portfolio.

 

Time to glue the wings on.

Here, we see G-ASGD in my decidedly low tech laydown fixture, during the wing mate process.

i used a decidedly low-tech gadget to ascertain dihedral and alignment and hopefully everything will dry up true, square and symmetrical.

I'm departing from the build sequence  of s/n 1, where i installed the empennage prior to the wings. Hoping this new method will help with the alignment of the tail feathers, which gave me fits on the first one due to the tricky job of assessing alignment.

 

 

There were many reasons for this- sweepback, parallax, plus i don't think the stabilizer installation is symmetrical, side to side (Roden did not adopt the single piece stabilizer design like Airfix did...)

 

Anyway, i'm headed out on another aviation misadventure, so the model will sit in the fixture, undisturbed, til at least Friday.

 

Aside from that, i got nothin.

 

-d-

[David H]

Hi Kids!

 

Just a couple of shots of G-ASGD taken out of the build fixture. Just a lick of Mr Surfacer 500 on the wing - fuselage joints, a little bit of Mr Leveling Thinner and a Q-Tip, and finally a smidge of wet sanding. Wings are on.

The CA and dental resin composite did exactly what i wanted it to do, which is close the gaps down to such a small amount that Mr Surfacer 500 could do the rest.

I carved and sanded away the rain gutters over the starboard hatches, based on Ian's suggestion. Not seen here.

I think its now time to go back to the jigs, and install the tail feathers.

Bye for now...

 

[David H]

Well, time to glue one of those magnificent tails on again...

Photos taken after i applied Tamiya extra thin to the locator tab and slotted it in place, while the model was in the "Laydown Fixture".

As an experiment as well as a necessity, i've reconstructed the starboard tailplane tip with a composite made from the kit tailplane tip (what was left of it), some thin sheet brass and my mix of dental resin powder and CA...

And here i am taking all practical "Anti-Wonking" precautions...

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that this whole T-tail assembly is gonna be a chore to work around. Why Roden chose to go this way, is kind of perplexing.

So, that's the state of play. Need to let her sit for a while....

As always, keep those letters and cards coming!

[RCI]

nice crafting, looking forward! there is a nice PE cockpit from metallic details, and if you need pilots, have a look on my website.

[David H]

On 8/26/2023 at 4:13 PM, RCI said:

nice crafting, looking forward! there is a nice PE cockpit from metallic details, and if you need pilots, have a look on my website.

What the kit really needs are all new engine nacelles, wheels, and better landing gear struts that aren't horribly mis-molded....

[David H]

Hello, and thanks for tuning in.

With the vertical fin installed and a temporary shortage of strip styrene, it seemed a good time to revisit a couple of things that needed just a smidge of rework.

In this case, the Port side (Engines 1 & 2) engine pylon.

The last time i attacked these things i used plastic packing tape as a glue barrier, but mainly as an expedient. Having found some bare metal foil, i thought i'd employ it here, since in my temporary digs i can't paint anything.

As this was more of a cleanup process, i just went ahead and used straight black carbon/rubber CA as a filler, applied once again with a CA Thick Looper.

And so with the foil removed from the fuselage side and the CA sanded down, we have this...

 

With that, i guess it's time to address that truck-sized gap between the dorsal and the vertical fin. Stay tuned...

[Bandsaw Steve]

Such a good looking aircraft! ❤️

[Archer_VC10]

I don't know if this is going to make me very popular as it may cause a bit of a headache... There is a bit of a twist (or rather a kink) in the engine pylons on the Super VC10s that doesn't really show up on most models. It may be too small to make much of a difference at this scale, or it may be present on the pylons already but it's just not really visible. When they moved the engines outboard and mounted them three degrees nose up, they added a sort of 'spacer' in the pylon on both sides (probably cut some material away as well). You can also see this when you look at the rear/trailing edge of the pylon, it's not a straight line.

Second photo shows an ex-EAA airframe, but the BOAC Super VC10 pylons were the same. The beaver tail between the engines is shaped slightly differently on this airframe, there were two types on the Supers.

 

Probably not what you wanted to hear right now... apologies!

 

And if you really want to drive yourself insane... there actually is a slight curve in the forward end of the large inboard wing fences. The front quarter or third or so curves slightly outboard. You can just make it out in the photo below, but I don't think that reproducing something like this on a 1/144 scale model is going to be good for you...

Edited October 4, 2023 by Archer_VC10
Added wing fence info and photo.

[David H]

Thanks for the photos. The first picture shows the "axis" of the pylon kink quite clearly. 11" further outboard, yes?

 

The other half of the problem concerns where the pylon joins the nacelles. Its the other reason why we need a good aftermarket VC10 engine nacelle. The 4-engine layout and that big tail are the realy focal points of a VC10 model, if ye ask me...

[Archer_VC10]

Yes, as far as I know each engine is some 11 inches further outboard, but if the kink in the pylon is the 'original' join line, they didn't just tilt the engines a bit nose up, they also canted them aft end outboard a bit. That's why they may also have removed a bit of material in my view, as I have never been able to confirm that there is just an insert between the original pylon and the Super version. In my view, the pylon trailing edge bit from the inboard engine to the kink is too short when compared to the Standard pylon trailing edge. I should have brought a tape measure...

(From a 1965 Aeroplane special about the Super VC10, listing the changes compared to the Standard VC10.)

 

I have been looking for photos of Standard VC10 pylons, but the best I can do is this:

There are some photos of the test installation on G-ARVE on this page: https://www.vc10.net/Airframes/cn_807__garve.html

They offer a bit of a comparison, but I do not have the equivalent photo of a 'real' Super VC10 pylon unfortunately. I would guess that the installation on 'VE was the same, but am not a 100% sure of course.

Edited October 5, 2023 by Archer_VC10

[David H]

8 hours ago, Archer_VC10 said:

Yes, as far as I know each engine is some 11 inches further outboard, but if the kink in the pylon is the 'original' join line, they didn't just tilt the engines a bit nose up, they also canted them aft end outboard a bit. That's why they may also have removed a bit of material in my view, as I have never been able to confirm that there is just an insert between the original pylon and the Super version. In my view, the pylon trailing edge bit from the inboard engine to the kink is too short when compared to the Standard pylon trailing edge. I should have brought a tape measure...

(From a 1965 Aeroplane special about the Super VC10, listing the changes compared to the Standard VC10.)

 

I have been looking for photos of Standard VC10 pylons, but the best I can do is this:

There are some photos of the test installation on G-ARVE on this page: https://www.vc10.net/Airframes/cn_807__garve.html

They offer a bit of a comparison, but I do not have the equivalent photo of a 'real' Super VC10 pylon unfortunately. I would guess that the installation on 'VE was the same, but am not a 100% sure of course.

Well,  It's a nice picture; the depiction of the panel lines is good. i doubt those on the nacelles proper changed much between the Standard and the Super.

Thanks for posting it!

-d-

[David H]

Hello, and welcome to my latest installment of this protracted, drawn-out (some might call it a screen saver) build of the second Super VC10.

 

Today, we sort of come full circle, and return to a "issue" that affected my first VC10 build. Namely, the pointed tips on the flying surfaces.

 

For those just tuning in, when Roden designed their VC10 kit, they broke the empennage down into a stand-alone vertical fin and incorporated left- and right-hand stabilizers that plugged into the sides of the vertical fin.

 

 

From a model building standpoint, this is a...... controversial engineering decision. It definitely resulted in thin trailing edges, but it added a lot of extra work. In particular, it mandated rework/clean-up in a rather delicate location on the model- the trailing edge tips.

 

For some engineering and historical context, the real VC10 tailplane was assembled as a single unit, bolted together at the centreline, and covered with some sort of metal/fibreglass/composite aerodynamic fairing. Unlike the Boeing 727 and the DC-9 where the stab pivoted around the rear spar and passed through a fixed cap on the vertical fin.... the VC10 stab pivot point was much further forward, and the aerodynamic fairing "rode along" on the top of the stabilizer.

In 1964 when Airfix designed their original standard VC10 kit they engineered the stab as a more or less single piece, like the aircraft. Authentic Airliners followed suit.

From an assembly standpoint, this is much more desirable as the stab can be left off until very late in construction and painted and installed during the "End Game". It also eliminates alignment problems compared to having to install left and right hand stabs into a slot, which may or may not be in exactly the right place.

 

Oh well. We accept the situation as it is; not as we would like it to be.

 

With that out of the way....The pointy tips on the wings and stabilizers are beautiful to look at, but they are extremely thin and brittle.

Those of you that remember my first VC10 build recall that some repair work was required on those trailing edges. I thought this time around i found a better solution, using a composite of brass sheet and CA/Dental resin, laminated onto the remaining lower stabilizer surface...

Well, in the end...it just did not work. It was brittle, yet flexible at the same time and the composite just wouldn't stay attached to the upper stabilizer.

So, acknowledging defeat, we went back to "Plan B"....The Old Way.

 

I notched out a big enough chunk of the elevator with a UMM Razor saw (boy those things are handy!), squared it up with sanding sticks and a little bit of carving, and CA-ed a plank of .040 thick Evergreen styrene plate.

When you're convinced that its hardened up, you take a saw again and carefully cut away *most* of the excess material. I've tried using a cutter in the past, but they can impose unpredictable flexing/shear loads that can crack apart the glue joint.

 

What i've found works best, it to start sanding the upper and lower surfaces first until they match the aerofoil cross sectional thickness. When that's done, round off the tip at the outboard end to conform to the planform, and finally finish by filing down the trailing edge until it matches the rest of the trailing edge of the elevator. If there is paint or primer already there, one advantage is it can sort of serve as a guide  to show you how close you are getting to achieving the proper thickness. I think they call that "contour sanding" or something like that.

The grey paint you see here, is AK Acrylic Lacquer, FS16440. I thought it would be thick enough to hide sanding scratches and my surface prep was adequate.

I was wrong.

Next time round i'm applying a primer (Tamiya mix) before i put the grey over it. I mean, Vickers-Armstrongs in Weybridge did the same thing..... so why shouldn't i?

Most of what you see here was accomplished using rigid backed sanding sticks, starting with 240 grit for initial bulk removal, 400 grit to round off the outboard end and work out the sanding scratches on the upper and lower parts, and then finally a 600 stick to true up the trailing edge.

There was a little bit of fine sanding with 1000 Tamiya sanding sponges and the GodHand 1500 sanding strips, but that was mainly to work out sanding scratches.

You have to be careful "cradling" the model while you sand on it (if you have to make a repair like this with the tail glued onto the model) to avoid putting flexing loads on the joint where it plugs into the vertical fin, and because the tip is so pointy you need to watch carefully how the sanding tools contact the surface so you don't carelessly bang into the tip and bend or break it off.

 

And since these tips *are* so delicate, i chose to use protection. A couple overlapping strips of Tamiya tape.

Hopefully, this is the only wingtip i will need to do this on.

I realize this is sort of going into the realm of OCD, but it's a very useful technique that i encourage you to try for repairing a damaged wingtip (ask me how i know this!) and it can come in handy for vacform models, where wings are always a right pain in the backside when it comes to the trailing edges.

It's not particularly difficult; it just requires the right tools, plenty of sanding water, good lighting and some patience. It did not take particularly ling to do.

 

Until next time, when i discover the next engineering challenge, lying in wait...I already know how the Undercarriage is gonna play out.

[David H]

So, at this stage in the game we are at the most difficult, hairy masking job on the VC10 build:

The empennage.

The tailplanes, not so bad. The fin "Bullet" per se, by itself is no big deal. But masking off the blue is a real chore.

Underside view, where the hard part is....

This time around, we used Tamiya Royal Blue, straight from the jar with no white added for scale effect...

And then, as is customary for me.... i always think of "Thus Sprach Zarathustra" from "2001", when i remove the masking...

Thankfully, the overspray was minimal and most of it cleaned up with a cotton bud and some Novus No. 2 polish.

The tail is now what i call "Blocked in". There are some repairs needing to be done here and there, but now that all the colours are on the tail, its a lot easier to mask off the areas in order to repair them.

I guess i need to get back to work on those wing fences. So, until next time...

[Andrew.S]

Really impressing work, I like your build very much!

[David H]

Well.... here we are again.

We are very close to the point where we will need to paint a VC10.... again.

One of the last details i wanted to get finalized were the distinctive wing fences.

Some of you recall that i was displeased with (some might call it a rant) the Roden approach to the wing fences, and frankly the aftermarket offerings were pretty uninspired as well.

The only way i could see a solution that was robust enough, was to make a (thin) saw cut through the upper wing planks and fashion a "deeper" wing fence from very thin brass sheet stock.

I'm pleased to say i think we got there. 2 observations:

 

1) Cutting two wing fences to identical dimensions is an inexact science.

 

2) The fences slid into the corresponding slots but they were tight. I got around this problem, by laying the fences down on my work mat and thinning them down with a 240 grit sanding stick. Care has to be taken however, because if you're too aggressive in your sanding, you can accidentally lift the fence off the working surface and bend it, possibly irreprarably.

This is what happened to the second wing fence i made, necessitating a new wing fence be fabricated for the starboard side.

I'm well along in making the smaller outboard fences, but i think i'm about ready to start priming.

 

Stay tuned...

Edited March 2, 2024 by David H

[David H]

Hooray! We've made it to Primer.

 

This time the primer was made from decanted Tamiya White Surface Primer (Instead of Mr Base White 1000) that was tinted with XF-4 Yellow Green.

i went with a much lighter coat of primer compared to the first one, partly because the upper fuselage/solar cap itself is gonna be all white primer (which is then sanded down and clear coated with a gloss).

Up next is a Seek- and- Destroy campaign to identify and eradicate surface glitches.

Somewhere in all of this chaos there's a Buccaneer waiting impatiently to get finished, and my Phantom is feeling neglected again.

Edited March 25, 2024 by David H

[Archer_VC10]

Looking good, even in light green primer! I like the new wing fences.

[David H]

2 hours ago, Archer_VC10 said:

Looking good, even in light green primer! I like the new wing fences.

They do look a lot better and should be much more sturdy.

[David H]

Just a quick update:

I'm back from my trip and i'm re-filling and sanding some gaps along the wing leading edges. Nothing serious.

I also went down the rabbit hole of making ANA 623 Gloss Sea Blue from scratch but that's another story...

[David H]

Okay, time to paint on the Solar Cap...

Tamiya decanted white surface primer.

Masking tape comes off tomorrow nite and we'll see where things go from there...