Blue Blenheims?

[Tweener]

In the DK Decals sheet for the Blenheim, a PRU blue aircraft is included. I can't think of any reason to believe this actually existed, but then I know that some Blenheims were used as PRU trials planed in a champagne like color, so perhaps this scheme is related? Does anyone know more?

Thanks in advance,

Tweener

[Dave Fleming]

[Graham Boak]

I don't think that I know of a champagne one.  Could this actually be an early attempt at PRU Pink?  The PRU had a lot of freedom in experimenting with different colours, and the full range have never been listed - to my knowledge, but I think it would have leaked out widely did it exist outside (hopefully!) a box still buried in an archive.  More in hope than in expectation.

[Ray_W]

There is also another image here. https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Blenheim/Bristol-Blenheim/pages/Bristol-Blenheim-IV-RAF-1PRU-LYx-sd-by-a-Me-109-at-Breskens-14th-Apr-1941-NIOD.html

 

 

[rossm]

The Blenheim, per the photo from @Dave Fleming, was V5376 - shot down by Me109s on 14th April 1941. According to the Almark decal sheet for PR Markings it was highly polished overall PRU Blue with the serial overpainted. Research was by Les Whitehouse who was well respected back in the day.

 

@Graham Boak - my guess is that "champagne" could be an early version of Sky - I'm not sure if Pol Roger (Churchill's favourite) ever produced a pink champagne 😁

 

A last note - the Almark sheet notes overall Light Slate Grey Hudsons existed but I'd send back any champagne that was that dark 😁

[Ray_W]

There was an interesting discussion on PDU Blenheims started 10 years ago, occasionally resurrected:

 

 

Sadly, @Blimpyboy asked the money question in 2020 and the thread stopped.

 

Ray

 

[Andy Fletcher]

Z5806 is often listed as "Green Blenheim Z5806" in the Form Mauve for 1 PRU from early 1941. Some Type G Spitfires are also listed as green and this would correspond to the early Camotint Green scheme used by the PDU/PRU.

[Graham Boak]

1 hour ago, rossm said:

Research was by Les Whitehouse who was well respected back in the day.

 

@Graham Boak - my guess is that "champagne" could be an early version of Sky - I'm not sure if Pol Roger (Churchill's favourite) ever produced a pink champagne 😁

Les still is.

 

PRU Pink has also been described as off-white.  There's not a lot of pink in it.  However, perhaps Sidney Cotton's favourite brand of champagne might be more relevant - or the favourite of whoever made the original comment.  Sky was already around as an underside for Blenheim bombers and has been quoted as used on early PRU aircraft, so it seems unlikely as an identification.  Not that I've ever seen green champagne either,

[Ed Russell]

25 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

Not that I've ever seen green champagne either,

Hehe - you don't mix in th right biosustainability green circles!

https://elitetraveler.com/homepage-splash/how-champagne-is-going-green

 

[Dave Fleming]

3 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

I don't think that I know of a champagne one.  Could this actually be an early attempt at PRU Pink?  The PRU had a lot of freedom in experimenting with different colours, and the full range have never been listed - to my knowledge, but I think it would have leaked out widely did it exist outside (hopefully!) a box still buried in an archive.  More in hope than in expectation.

I'd assumed that it was a description for Camotint/Sky

[Tweener]

3 hours ago, Dave Fleming said:

I'd assumed that it was a description for Camotint/Sky

Camotint, yes. I don't recall where I saw it described as champagne-like, but the photo I saw definitely gave that impression as well. 

 

6 hours ago, Dave Fleming said:

I'd seen that photo and somehow didn't make the connection it was the one on the DK sheet. To me at least, it doesn't come across as blue - something about that line on the top of the horizontal stabilizer throws me, though in theory that's just a shadow. 

[Phoenix44]

6 hours ago, Tweener said:

Camotint, yes. I don't recall where I saw it described as champagne-like, but the photo I saw definitely gave that impression as well. 

 

I'd seen that photo and somehow didn't make the connection it was the one on the DK sheet. To me at least, it doesn't come across as blue - something about that line on the top of the horizontal stabilizer throws me, though in theory that's just a shadow. 

I don't think you can tell much from that photo. Assuming there's a red and a blue on the fin flash, the colour(s) of the fuselage could be pretty much anything. I'm unclear why they would be PRU blue though  - wasn't that essentially a high altitude colour? Wete Blenheims supposed to operate at high altitude in a PR role's?

[Tweener]

6 hours ago, Phoenix44 said:

I don't think you can tell much from that photo. Assuming there's a red and a blue on the fin flash, the colour(s) of the fuselage could be pretty much anything. I'm unclear why they would be PRU blue though  - wasn't that essentially a high altitude colour? Wete Blenheims supposed to operate at high altitude in a PR role's?

One Blenheim was modified for the role but found unsuitable, so I can't imagine any non-modified airframes would've been considered for it. At the same time, I know some B24s and B25s in southeast Asia ended up in PRU Blue, so crazier things happened...

[brewerjerry]

Hi 

    another photo here, credited to a NA kew file, think the reference air 81 is the casualty files 

   cheers

     jerry

 

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/53594

Edited August 20, 2022 by brewerjerry

[Graham Boak]

3 hours ago, Tweener said:

One Blenheim was modified for the role but found unsuitable, so I can't imagine any non-modified airframes would've been considered for it. At the same time, I know some B24s and B25s in southeast Asia ended up in PRU Blue, so crazier things happened...

The Blenheim was  the RAF's standard, not to say only, reconnaissance aircraft, and as such will have been provided Cotton as the closest in performance to his own Lockheed.  Plus their Hudsons, of course.  The modified Blenheim was a Mk.1, and the conclusion was that the changes were not worth the effort rather than ruling out the Blenheim altogether..  This one was a Mk.IV, so clearly the PRU did operate this type as shown by their codes on the fuselage.  This is not to say that the Blenheim, Hudson, or the Lockheed, were really appropriate: over Western Europe, hence the call for Spitfires.

 

Both B-25s and B-24s were entirely suitable for the role. as used in their respective theatres.  As indeed were Marylands, Hurricanes, Buffalos and other types.  Required ranges and likely opposition differed.  And in the end, you use what you've got.

[Andy Fletcher]

The Blenheim IV was used in a limited operational capacity by 1 PRU for low/medium level operations when cloud conditions were suitable. They took over from the unit's Hudsons but like their predecessors they lacked the performance to be effective and fell out of use by mid 1941. Blenheim IVs known to have been used operationally by 1 PRU include: V5376, V5455, V5456, V,5458, V5635, Z5806. Other Blenheim IVs used by 1 PRU included: T2444, V5428, Z5807. I believe some of the Blenheim IVs were PRU blue as were 1 PRU's Marylands.  

[Tweener]

17 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

The Blenheim was  the RAF's standard, not to say only, reconnaissance aircraft, and as such will have been provided Cotton as the closest in performance to his own Lockheed.  Plus their Hudsons, of course.  The modified Blenheim was a Mk.1, and the conclusion was that the changes were not worth the effort rather than ruling out the Blenheim altogether..  This one was a Mk.IV, so clearly the PRU did operate this type as shown by their codes on the fuselage.  This is not to say that the Blenheim, Hudson, or the Lockheed, were really appropriate: over Western Europe, hence the call for Spitfires.

 

Both B-25s and B-24s were entirely suitable for the role. as used in their respective theatres.  As indeed were Marylands, Hurricanes, Buffalos and other types.  Required ranges and likely opposition differed.  And in the end, you use what you've got.

I wasn't referring to the suitability of the 24 and 25, but rather to the strangeness of them having been painted in Blue. In any case, seeing the other angle of the Blenheim coded LY leaves me all but convinced that the airframe was not repainted, given the top of the horizontal stabilizer and the area just above said codes. Buying the DK sheet may have been for waste unless I end up making the coastal command scheme.

[Tweener]

Has anyone else experienced issues with the forum posting the same reply 2-4 times as of late?

Edited August 21, 2022 by Tweener

[Tweener]

14 hours ago, Andy Fletcher said:

The Blenheim IV was used in a limited operational capacity by 1 PRU for low/medium level operations when cloud conditions were suitable. They took over from the unit's Hudsons but like their predecessors they lacked the performance to be effective and fell out of use by mid 1941. Blenheim IVs known to have been used operationally by 1 PRU include: V5376, V5455, V5456, V,5458, V5635, Z5806. Other Blenheim IVs used by 1 PRU included: T2444, V5428, Z5807. I believe some of the Blenheim IVs were PRU blue as were 1 PRU's Marylands.  

According to the Warner Book, aircraft LY was V5376, lost following anti-shipping sortie, which obviously contrasts with any possible PRU operations. Do you recall which source notes it's PRU employment?

[Ed Russell]

4 hours ago, Tweener said:

the top of the horizontal stabilizer and the area just above said codes.

That's light flare in a photo which has not reproduced very well. It is not good enough to draw conclusions from.

[Ray_W]

5 hours ago, Tweener said:

Do you recall which source notes it's PRU employment?

 

@brewerjerry provided this link https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/53594 also available here https://www.rafcommands.com/database/serials/details.php?uniq=V5376  (invalid security certificate may give you trouble entering)

 

But, maybe better to go here https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C16755141 

 

Ray

[rossm]

 

2 hours ago, Ed Russell said:

7 hours ago, Tweener said:

the top of the horizontal stabilizer and the area just above said codes.

That's light flare in a photo which has not reproduced very well. It is not good enough to draw conclusions from.

 

I agree, I don't think the photo quality is good enough to draw firm conclusions. That said I can convince myself I can see a slight reflection on the fin flash on the top of the tailplane which would support the "highly polished" note on the Almark sheet. Given that PRU Blue is given on the Almark sheet which was researched by Les Whitehouse and produced by ED Models, both well respected, I would go with PRU Blue.

 

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/almark-decals-a36-pr-markings-europe--965349 Also produced in 1/48 as sheet A48-24

[Graham Boak]

9 hours ago, Tweener said:

According to the Warner Book, aircraft LY was V5376, lost following anti-shipping sortie, which obviously contrasts with any possible PRU operations. Do you recall which source notes it's PRU employment?

The single code LY was that carried by the PRU rather than any of the bomber units that would be employed on anti-shipping strikes.  Possibly the mission was associated with enemy shipping?

 

I was thinking of the ex-Dutch B-25s used by the RAF, although strictly these were not in PYU Blue at least initially) but in the darker Middle-East version sometimes called Bosun's Blue.

[Andy Fletcher]

12 hours ago, Tweener said:

According to the Warner Book, aircraft LY was V5376, lost following anti-shipping sortie, which obviously contrasts with any possible PRU operations. Do you recall which source notes it's PRU employment?

 

The source for the info is the 1 PRU ORB (AIR 29/414-415). V5376 was lost on a sortie to the Dutch coast to look for shipping, not an uncommon task for the PRU/1 PRU in 1940 and early 1941.

[alt-92]

And Breskens is a coastal town opposite Vlissingen, on the Scheldt estuary.