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for those wanting something different, USN carrier test with P51D and PBJ-1H (naval B-25H)


Troy Smith

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while searching up info on USS Shangri La, in their image page here

https://www.navsource.org/archives/02/38.htm

 

"A North American P-51D Mustang about to be launched from the deck of USS Shangri-La, November 1944, during Navy evaluation tests as to the suitability of the Mustang for carrier service (USN)."

https://www.navsource.org/archives/02/023868c.jpg

 

 

"USS Shangri-La (CV-38), 15 November 1944. PBJ-1H Mitchell, BuNo 35277 (ex-USAAF B-25H 43-4700), A Marine Corps PBJ-1H Mitchell patrol bomber landing onboard the carrier USS Shangri-La, November 1944, during Navy evaluation tests as to the suitability of the Mitchell for carrier service "

 

https://www.navsource.org/archives/02/023869c.jpg

 

there are more pics in the link

 

Maybe old news,  but don't recall running across a discussion here on these, (but I didn't search)  and perhaps would make interesting projects for someone, a Monogram B-25H on a bit of deck with some USN figures (like the ones in many old Monogram USN kits) could make a neat little diorama,  says the P-51D was modified, but I can't spot any differences.

 

 @Tailspin Turtle 

 

Hope of interest.

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Hi

    interesting, to my eyes the P-51 maybe has a tail hook fitted,

 

https://www.navsource.org/archives/02/023868a.jpg

 

likewise the PBJ-1H also  catching the wire 

 

 

https://www.navsource.org/archives/02/023869.jpg

 

 

 

was it Naval Air Station Patuxent River that used to do the tail hook conversions ? 

    cheers

       jerry 

Edited by brewerjerry
typo
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On 8/15/2022 at 8:01 PM, brewerjerry said:

Hi

    interesting, to my eyes the P-51 maybe has a tail hook fitted,

 

https://www.navsource.org/archives/02/023868a.jpg

 

likewise the PBJ-1H also  catching the wire 

 

 

https://www.navsource.org/archives/02/023869.jpg

 

 

 

was it Naval Air Station Patuxent River that used to do the tail hook conversions ? 

    cheers

       jerry 

Can't say with 100% accuracy, but I do believe both photos of the PBJ-1H have been censored.  Decades ago, Testors put out the Italeri B-25H/J with naval markings.   However they forgot to add the radome on the right wing tip for the radar.  Since then, until seeing these two photos, every picture of the later naval PBJs I recall seeing, had the radome on the right wing tip.  They didn't want to advertise all of the changes they had made to the B-25 for naval service.

Later,

Dave

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I’ve always understood that the PBJ-1 Mitchell’s for the USN were interspersed on the production line with those for the USAAF. While they were given a USN paint job, their radar fit was installed at the USNavy Modification Unit at Elizabeth, New Jersey which I believe was run by Consolidated Vultee. The PBJ-1D certainly passed through there gaining radar either in the belly or later the nose.

 

Here is a another B-25 thread with a photo of a PBJ-1H on a test flight with no radome on the wing. This was extracted from Jerry Scutts “Marine Mitchells in World War Two” book published by Phalanx back in 1993.

 

 

As for the aircraft landed on the Shangri La, BuAer proposed the conversion of a PBJ-1 in March 1944 and by the end of April North American had begun the work. Once converted it went to the Naval Air Modification Center for trials to determine landing speeds, how late the wave off could be etc. On 30 Oct 1944, the Chief of Naval Operations ordered an actual deck trial with Shangri La being ordered to devote a day of her work up to the task. 5 arrested landings and take offs were planned for the PBJ and the P-51 and F7F with a clear flight deck and no use of crash barriers (they were not designed for stopping twin engined aircraft).

 

The Report by the Captain of the Shangri La on her wartime activities, notes that while there were 5 landings and take offs by the F7F and P-51, there was only a single landing and take off by the PBJ-1H.

 

There is another point about the wing mounted radar. When VMB-612 began to receive PBJ-1J aircraft similarly fitted in 1945 their ground crews converted them to fit the radar in the nose just like their earlier PBJ-1D. Amongst the benefits noted was that it gave better weight distribution as well as a wider field of sweep. 

 

So, overall I don’t believe that the photos of that PBJ-1H taken on the Shangri La have been censored. Usually there are some traces of that, but I can’t see any. I believe that North American pulled a radarless PBJ-1H from their Inglewood production line for conversion and delivered it to the USN. The land trials were focussed on the landing characteristics so no need for radar. And the weight would have to be kept down for the carrier trial so again why fit radar. Add to that, the test pilots would not want the added problems of an unbalanced aircraft to complicate an initial trial.

 

What I find interesting is the termination of the trial with only one landing and take off when 5 were planned. I suspect this may have been due to the low wind conditions noted in the Captain’s report.

 

See Page 54 of this .pdf for details of the trial

https://digital-commons.usnwc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1036&context=usnwc-newport-papers

 

And see page 4,18 & 19 of this .pdf of the captain’s report

http://www.mansell.com/Resources/special_files/FOLD3/USS_Shangri-La_History_1942-1945_a.pdf

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by EwenS
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Some additional information taken from the Osprey Combat Aircraft book " PBJ Mitchell Units of the Pacific War"

 

The airframe of BuNo 35277 (43-4700) was strengthened by the NAA Kansas City modification Centre with the necessary carrier equipment installed at the Naval Air Material Center Philadelphia. Amongst the mods was a main undercarrige that could turn sideways to a limited degree to aid handling on the carrier deck.

 

First approach aborted and aircraft returned to NAS Norfolk for repairs. Damage can't have been serious.

Second attempt resulted in a successful landing. After inspection the aircraft was launched at 27,000lbs

Third attempt, second successful landing, was deliberately made off center on the arrester wires (a common test to check structural integrity of airframe and hook).

A third landing and take offf was made. That last resulted in the loss of an undercarriage door.

 

So 3 successful landings and take offs despite the entry in the Captain's report.

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More here on the PBJ-1H evaluation: http://steeljawscribe.com/2007/10/05/flightdeck-friday-more-oddities

 

Note that I very much doubt it was modified with an SBD tailhook. It wouldn't have been nearly long enough and probably not strong enough. However, the configuration of the articulation of the attachment to the fuselage and the hook point may have been the same.

 

My understanding is that one reason for the evaluation was a plan to support the invasion of Japan in 1945 with deck loads of Marine PBJ-1s launched off the coast for close air support. They would land back at the nearest island and then craned back aboard a carrier to do it again. Landing the PBJs back aboard the carrier would significantly shorten the turnaround time. Note that there was no need to evaluate a specific modification to strike a PBJ below if it was simply a tricycle-gear design-support project.

Edited by Tailspin Turtle
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7 hours ago, EwenS said:

Some additional information taken from the Osprey Combat Aircraft book " PBJ Mitchell Units of the Pacific War"

 

So 3 successful landings and take offs despite the entry in the Captain's report.

Thanks very much for that. Note that the Captain's report simply documented the date of the first PBJ landing and that the trials were completed a few days later. The second set of PBJ launches and landings was reportedly made the day after the first.

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Total PBJ-1 accepted, 50 C, 152 D, 1 G, 248 H, 255 J, total 706.  USN Idea of contracts, NAer-10000-6 dated 14 January 1943, (from USAAF contracts AC-19341, 27930, 30478), for 300 aircraft less 48 reallocated, 50 C, 152 D, 49 J (under NAER-10000-6/79), 1 G (under NAer-10000-6), BuNo 34998 to 35249, also under NAER-10000-6/79 dated 17 April 1943, 200+48 H BuNo 35250 to 35297, 88872 to 89071.  NAer-20000-25 dated 19 June 1944 for 83 J, BuNo 38980 to 39012, 64943 to 64992.  NAer-30000-119 dated 19 January 1945 for 123 J BuNo 35798 to 35920.

 

To see what the USAAF documentation says about PBJ

 

From North American, Inglewood,
B-25C/PBJ-1C

42-64502 to 64506, quantity 5, accepted in Feb-43, BuNo 34998 to 35002. NOTE: Not modified for allocation centre
42-64602 to 64621, quantity 20, accepted in Mar-43, BuNo 35003 to 22. NOTE: Initially to 2 to San Pedro, rest to NA Kansas
42-64708 to 64732, quantity 25, accepted in Apr-43, BuNo 35023 to 47. NOTE: Initially to Rosvelt, San Pedro, Louisville, Kansas City

B-25G/PBJ-1G
42-65031 to 65031, quantity 1, accepted in Jul-43, BuNo 35097. NOTE: Initially to Anacosta

B-25H/PBJ-1H
43-4471, quantity 1, accepted in Jan-44, BuNo 35280. NOTE: Initially to Omaha
43-4482, quantity 1, accepted in Jan-44, BuNo 35281. NOTE: Initially to Omaha
43-4492, quantity 1, accepted in Jan-44, BuNo 35282. NOTE: Initially to Omaha
43-4530, quantity 1, accepted in Feb-44, BuNo diverted to Navy, BuNo not given but is 88872. NOTE: Initially to NA Kansas
43-4542 to 4544, quantity 3, accepted in Feb-44, BuNo 35283 to 5. NOTE: Initially to NA Kansas
43-4591 to 4593, quantity 3, accepted in Feb-44, BuNo 35286 to 8. NOTE: Initially to NA Kansas
43-4638, quantity 1, accepted in Mar-44, BuNo 88873. NOTE: Initially to Omaha
43-4654 to 4656, quantity 3, accepted in Mar-44, BuNo 88874, 35292, 35259. NOTE: Initially to Omaha
43-4658 to 4661, quantity 4, accepted in Mar-44, BuNo 35293, 35250, 35251, 88875. NOTE: Initially to Omaha
43-4664 to 4667, quantity 4, accepted in Mar-44, BuNo 35294 to 6, 35252. NOTE: Initially to Omaha
43-4669 to 4673, quantity 5, accepted in Mar-44, BuNo 35253, 60, 54 to 56. NOTE: Initially to Omaha
43-4675 to 4676, quantity 2, accepted in Mar-44, BuNo 35261, 57. NOTE: Initially to Omaha
43-4682 to 4705, quantity 24, accepted in Mar-44, BuNo 35289 to 91, 62 to 79, 88876, 7, 89051. NOTE: Initially to Omaha
43-4709 to 4730, quantity 22, accepted in Mar-44, BuNo 35297, 58, 88878 to 97. NOTE: Initially to Omaha, except 43-4700, which has no modification centre entry.
43-4731, quantity 1, accepted in Apr-44, BuNo 88898. NOTE: Initially to Omaha
43-4732 to 4735, quantity 4, accepted in Mar-44, BuNo 88899 to 902. NOTE: Initially to Omaha
43-4736 to 4737, quantity 2, accepted in Apr-44, BuNo 88903 and 4. NOTE: Initially to Omaha
43-4738, quantity 1, accepted in Mar-44, BuNo 88905. NOTE: Initially to Omaha
43-4739 to 4835, quantity 97, accepted in Apr-44, BuNo 88906 to 89002. NOTE: Initially to Omaha
43-4836 to 4883, quantity 48, accepted in May-44, BuNo 89003 to 89050. NOTE: Initially to Omaha
43-5028 to 5038, quantity 11, accepted in Jun-44, BuNo 89052 to 62. NOTE: Initially to NA Kansas
43-5040 to 5048, quantity 9, accepted in Jun-44, BuNo 89064 to 71, 63. NOTE: Initially to NA Kansas

 

From North American, Kansas City,
B-25D/PBJ-1D
41-30730 to 30754, quantity 25, accepted in Jun-43, BuNo 35048 to 72. NOTE: Initially to NA Kansas
42-87157 to 87205, quantity 49, accepted in Jul-43, BuNo 35073 to 96, 98 to 122. NOTE: Initially to NA Kansas
43-3320 to 3344, quantity 25, accepted in Oct-43, BuNo 35123 to 47. NOTE: Initially to Martin Omaha
43-3570 to 3605, quantity 36, accepted in Dec-43, BuNo 35148 to 83. NOTE: Initially to Martin Omaha
43-3651, quantity 1, accepted in Dec-43, BuNo 35184. NOTE: Initially to Martin Omaha
43-3655, quantity 1, accepted in Dec-43, BuNo 35185. NOTE: Initially to Martin Omaha
43-3771 to 3778, quantity 8, accepted in Jan-44, BuNo 35186 to 93. NOTE: Initially to Omaha
43-3837 to 3843, quantity 7, accepted in Feb-44, BuNo 35196 to 202. NOTE: Initially to NA Kansas

B-25J/PBJ-1J
43-3985 to 3986, quantity 2, accepted in Feb-44, BuNo 35194 and 5. NOTE: Initially to NA Kansas
43-27511 to 27515, quantity 5, accepted in Mar-44, BuNo 35203 to 7. NOTE: Initially to NA Kansas
43-27904 to 27910, quantity 7, accepted in May-44, BuNo 35215 to 21. NOTE: Initially to NA Kansas
43-27681 to 27687, quantity 7, accepted in Apr-44, BuNo 35208 to 14. NOTE: Initially to NA Kansas
43-28174 to 28180, quantity 7, accepted in Jun-44, BuNo 35222 to 8. NOTE: Initially to NA Kansas
44-28792 to 28801, quantity 10, accepted in Jul-44, BuNo 35229 to 38. NOTE: Initially to NA Kansas
44-29064 to 29073, quantity 10, accepted in Aug-44, BuNo 35239 to 48.
44-29276 to 29285, quantity 10, accepted in Sep-44, BuNo 35249 to 58. NOTE: Actual BuNo 35249, 38980 to 88
44-29290 to 29299, quantity 10, accepted in Sep-44, BuNo 35259 to 68. NOTE: Actual BuNo 38989 to 98
44-29510 to 29513, quantity 4, accepted in Nov-44, BuNo 64969 to 72.
44-29604 to 29623, quantity 20, accepted in Oct-44, BuNo 38999 to 39012, 64943 to 8.
44-29788 to 29794, quantity 7, accepted in Nov-44, BuNo 64949 to 55.
44-29801 to 29807, quantity 7, accepted in Nov-44, BuNo 64956 to 62.
44-29814 to 29819, quantity 6, accepted in Nov-44, BuNo 64963 to 8.
44-29870 to 29884, quantity 15, accepted in Nov-44, BuNo 64973 to 87.
44-29897 to 29901, quantity 5, accepted in Nov-44, BuNo 64988 to 92.
44-30353 to 30356, quantity 4, accepted in Feb-45, BuNo 35821 to 4.
44-30509 to 30531, quantity 23, accepted in Jan-45, BuNo 35798 to 820.
44-30693 to 30697, quantity 5, accepted in Feb-45, BuNo 35825 to 9.
44-30703 to 30710, quantity 8, accepted in Feb-45, BuNo 35830 to 7.
44-30716 to 30718, quantity 3, accepted in Feb-45, BuNo 35838 to 40.
44-30849 to 30851, quantity 3, accepted in Mar-45, BuNo 35877 to 9.
44-30856, quantity 1, accepted in Mar-45, BuNo 35880.
44-30961 to 30964, quantity 4, accepted in Mar-45, BuNo 35841 to 4.
44-30972 to 30975, quantity 4, accepted in Mar-45, BuNo 35845 to 8.
44-30980 to 30991, quantity 12, accepted in Mar-45, BuNo 35849 to 60.
44-31089 to 31098, quantity 10, accepted in Mar-45, BuNo 35861 to 70.
44-31099, quantity 1, accepted in Apr-45, BuNo 35871.
44-31100, quantity 1, accepted in Mar-45, BuNo 35872.
44-31101 to 31104, quantity 4, accepted in Apr-45, BuNo 35873 to 6.
44-31277 to 31296, quantity 20, accepted in May-45, BuNo 35881 to 900.
44-31444 to 31463, quantity 20, accepted in Jun-45, BuNo 35901 to 20.

 

In September 1944 the USAAF records have the BuNo 35250 to 35268 for PBJ-1J, they were actually used for PBJ-1H, with the result the USAAF documents duplicate those serials.  As note above 43-4700/BuNo 35277 is unique in its group, it did not go to a modification centre.

 

The USAAF and USN documentation normally agree with each other in terms of monthly acceptances except for February to June 1944.  One February and the June difference is probably B-25H 43-4530 which is marked diverted to Navy, it became BuNo 88872, accepted by the USAAF in February but did not leave the modification centre until June 1944, it is assumed the other differences are due to similar reasons

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2 hours ago, gingerbob said:

It suddenly occurs to me that it is rather odd that they were all "PBJ-1_"s!  Shouldn't they have been PBJ-2, 3, etc?

PB = patrol bomber J= North American,  but if you mean why was a PBJ-1 =B-25D,  PBJ-2 =B-25H....

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1922_United_States_Navy_aircraft_designation_system

 

note

"Minor modifications[edit]

Letters were occasionally appended after the design number to denote minor modifications to the subtype; e.g. adding 'N' to the Grumman F6F-5 Hellcat designated the radar-equipped night fighter version of that model: F6F-5N.

The first suffix to be used was "C" for aircraft modified for launching from an aircraft catapult on a battleship. Before World War II, the suffixes were often consecutive, with many lacking defined meanings, and they were not often used. During the war, they came into wide use and were given defined meanings, but letters were duplicated and their meanings were inconsistent. For instance, the letter "A" was used both for deletion of the tailhook from an aircraft normally so equipped (e.g. the Douglas SBD-5A, used from land bases) and for addition of this equipment to a land-based aircraft; for amphibious versions of flying boats (e.g. the Consolidated PBY-5A); for armament added to a normally unarmed type; and for miscellaneous modifications (e.g. the aforementioned F4U-1A). The addition of a tailhook to a land-based aircraft could also be designated with a "C", e.g. the North American SNJ-5C, repeating the letter previously used for catapult-launched aircraft.[6]

A significant wartime exception to this system was existing United States Army Air Forces (USAAF) types adopted by the Navy, such as the North American B-25 Mitchell; in some such cases, the minor modification letter simply mirrored the USAAF sub-type letter, e.g. the B-25H became the PBJ-1H.[7]"

 

I'll @Tailspin Turtle  as it is Wiki, but AFAIK, this is how it worked.

 

HTH

 

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