F4U-1C , the cannon armed version, from CV-38 Shangri La ?

[Troy Smith]

while searching for other things, I found this, an F4U-1C,  the fairly rare 4x 20 mm cannon Corsair,  and a pic which I don't recall seeing before. 

 

 

which I don't recall seeing before

this shows the marking to be that of CV-38 Shangri La

 

http://www.pmcn.de/ABC/USN Markings III/USN Markings III.htm

 

EDIT 

https://www.reddit.com/r/WWIIplanes/comments/wi3nfg/f4u1c_in_flight_only_200_of_this_cannon_armed/

 

 

"4 F4U-1Cs in flight, belonging to VF-85 aboard the USS Shangri-La in 1945. Built and designed in conjunction with the F4U-1D, the 1C featured 4 x 20mm AN/M2 Cannons. At first these proved problematic, they tended to freeze at high altitudes and jams were regular due to poor maintenance, fortunately as the ground crews gained more experience the cannons became just as reliable as the venerable 50.cal but issues with freezing at altitudes above 25,000ft remained until the addition of gun heaters, but very little combat occurred at high altitude with Pacific naval aircraft.

With less ammo than the 50.cal which operated fine in the pacific, the 20mm armed Corsairs were largely used in the ground attack role where the added firepower was definitrly appreciated. The aircraft beyond the cannons was fundamentally identical to the early F4U-1D (of note, the early -1D which all 200 -1Cs were the same had the external fuel tank pylon of the -1A and the new style twin underbelly pylons, technically allowing 3 drop tanks to be used though this feature was deleted early into production of the -1D) and as such bombs and rockets could be used too, though the standard arrangement of the rocket armed Corsair was 8 HVAR rockets the -1C can often be seen with just 4 rocket racks but the reason for this is unclear. Despite the affinity for ground attack, 4 x 20mm cannons don't discriminate between targets and a few air kills were scored. I believe one pilot got their 5th kill using a 1C but I've lost where I wrote down their name so don't quote me on that.

Despite appearances in certain games (cough War Thunder cough) all F4U-1Cs were delivered in the overall sea blue scheme, the lightning bolt on the ones pictured here show they are from the Shangri-La. Also whilst the -1C and -1D were designed in parallel, the cannon Corsair actually entered active service later with the -1D appearing in late 1944 and the -1C in early 1945.

Ultimately despite being less common than the -1D, lessons learnt from this would go on to assist in the development of the later F4U-4B and other cannon armed Corsairs of the Korean war era."

 

Question on other units

"Afraid not. Based purely on photos I've seen I know of VF-85/VBF-85, VMF-311 and VMF-314.

As far as I'm aware no squadron was purely F4U-1Cs, all I've come across have a mix of -1C and -1D at the time and pilots would freely switch between whatever was available. This can make tracking them down a bit more difficult, and there isn't a tonne of photos of them anyways. I'd be surprised if there were many more squadrons than those 3 anyways considering the limited production numbers" 

 

 

Looking up USS Shangri La here

https://www.navsource.org/archives/02/38.htm

 

this image 

https://www.navsource.org/archives/02/023898.jpg

Note the cannons.

 

I'll @Dana Bell @Tailspin Turtle  

 

Hope of interest

[Jackson Duvalier]

The cover art on the most recent Squadron-Signal F4U Corsair In Action volume, dated 2010, depicts an F4U-1C (White 53) of Air Group 85 with the Shangri-La lightning bolt.  The serial is given as "82305" but I suspect this is a typo, as the initial numeral would indicate fiscal year 1948, which in 1945 was still some time into the future.  A serial of "52305" would fit better, perhaps someone misread a 5 as an 8 somewhere?

 

On page 28 there is a photograph of White 53 much the worse for wear after a crash landing on Maui, the caption repeats the improbable "82305" serial.  There's also a photo on page 29 of the first F4U-1C at the Vought factory wearing the "three colour" scheme.  The book states the remainder of F4U-1C production were overall GSB.

 

I've toyed with the idea of an F4U-1C conversion.  The work required would be fairly straightforward: fill the MG ports, add the cannon barrels and fairings, reshape the ammunition bay doors and ejection chutes, add rocket stubs.  In 1/72 the Academy F4U-1 or the Tamiya F4U-1A or -1D kits would be acceptable starting points.

[gingerbob]

3 hours ago, Jackson Duvalier said:

The serial is given as "82305" but I suspect this is a typo, as the initial numeral would indicate fiscal year 1948

 

You're thinking Army Air Forces serial numbering- Navy (BuNo) was just a sequential flow, though it "reset" a time or two.

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

The USN Bureau Numbers have no relationship to year of ordering.

 

F4U-1C BuNo 57567 to 69, 57777 to 91, 57966 to 90, 57980 to 83, 82178 to 89, 82260 to 69, 82270 to 89, 82370 to 94, 82435 to 59, 82540 to 69, 82570 to 82, 82633 to 39, 82740 to 61, built in BuNo order,  Total 200.  From USN Airplane Serial Number Records,

 

Production by month
Aug-44    18
Sep-44    30
Oct-44    56
Nov-44    66
Dec-44    28
Jan-45    2

[Jackson Duvalier]

I stand corrected!  Thanks for the additional information, Bob and Geoffrey.

[KRK4m]

6 hours ago, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

F4U-1C BuNos:

57567 to 69,

57777 to 91,

57966 to 90,

57980 to 83,

82178 to 89,

82260 to 69,

82270 to 89,

82370 to 94,

82435 to 59,

82540 to 69,

82570 to 82,

82633 to 39,

82740 to 61, 

 

10 hours ago, Jackson Duvalier said:

The serial is given as "82305" but I suspect this is a typo, as the initial numeral would indicate fiscal year 1948, which in 1945 was still some time into the future.  

A serial of "52305" would fit better, perhaps someone misread a 5 as an 8 somewhere?.........

...........On page 28 there is a photograph of White 53 much the worse for wear after a crash landing on Maui, the caption repeats the improbable "82305" serial. 

Even though BuNo 82305 was a wartime one, it didn't belong to any F4U-1C, since the BuNo 82290-82369 block is actually F4U-1D (according to Douglas E. Campbell).

I'd rather vote for 82453, 82553 or 82753.

Cheers

Michael 

[KRK4m]

On 8/16/2022 at 12:15 PM, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

F4U-1C BuNo 57567 to 69, 57777 to 91, 57966 to 90, 57980 to 83, 82178 to 89, 82260 to 69, 82270 to 89, 82370 to 94, 82435 to 59, 82540 to 69, 82570 to 82, 82633 to 39, 82740 to 61, built in BuNo order,  Total 200.  From USN Airplane Serial Number Records,

I'm sorry, but I need to add a few small adjustments here:

1. Not 57567 to 69, but 57657 to 59

2. Not 57966 to 90 and 57980 to 83 (that would overlap), but 57966 to 83

 

However, the majority of F4U-1Cs really joined the USMC units, namely VMF 213, 221, 311, 313, 314, 441, and 451.

Several went to SERVRON* 22 and CASU^ (F) 12. The only USN units operating F4U-1C from aircraft carriers were VF-85 (USS ShangriLa) and VBF-1 (USS Bennington).

Identified F4U-1C with VF-85 had BuNos: 82371, 82382, 82436, 82440, 82451, 82455, 82541, 82542, 82543, 82547, 82548, 82551, 82633, 82636, 82744, 82746, 82751, 82753 and 82759

Cheers

Michael

 

* Service Squadron

^Carrier Service Unit

    

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

On 20/08/2022 at 03:43, KRK4m said:

1. Not 57567 to 69, but 57657 to 59

2. Not 57966 to 90 and 57980 to 83 (that would overlap), but 57966 to 83

Thanks for the check and correction, agreed on point 2 (the 90 should have been 79), but not point 1, as I am looking at the airplane serial number record.

[KRK4m]

I absolutely do not feel like an F4U expert. My sources are just Joe Baugher and Douglas E. Campbell.

Cheers

Michael

[Dana Bell]

Our lists almost agree.  The 57657 - 59 still should be 57567 thru 57569.  Note also that the fourth and fifth lines are a continuous block, since 57983 was constructor's number 4024 and 82178 was 4025.  BuNo 02154 was the second production Birdcage, but any cannon-armed -1 was officially a -1C.  Jim Sullivan's note of 50277 was news to me, but I expect he found a conversion report that I hadn't.  The crash/cover aircraft as 82305 doesn't fit with my list, but Jim is very thorough - it's more likely that I missed something.

 

1 - 0002 - 02154
2 - 3608 - 57567 thru 4 - 3610 - 57569
5 - 3818 - 57777 thru 19 - 3832 - 57791
20 - 4007 - 57966 thru 37 - 4024 - 57983
38 - 4025 - 82178 thru 49 - 4036 - 82189
50 - 4107 - 82260 thru 79 - 4136 - 82289
80 - 4217 - 82370 thru 104 - 4241 - 82394
105 - 4282 - 82435 thru 129 - 4306 - 82459
130 - 4387 - 82540 thru 172 - 4429 - 82582
173 - 4480 - 82633 thru 179 - 4486 - 82639
180 - 4587 - 82740 thru 201 - 4608 - 82761    
 

My list comes from the BuAer internal and contract files in Record Group 72 at the National Archives, but there may have been subsequent changes that I missed.  Also, 47 -1Cs were modded back to -1D standards, but I never took the time to dig up all the serials.  

 

Finally, the cannon-armed -4s were initially designated F4U-4C, but this was later revised to F4U-1B.

 

All this, but I still have no idea of the BuNo for the aircraft in question...

 

Cheers,

 

 

Dana

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

For the Aircraft Serial Number Record to be incorrect it would only require making the notation on the adjacent page, given there are 100 serials to the page, so 57480 to 57579 then 57580 to 57679.  Also all the other F4U-4C notes are typed, the ones for 57567 to 57569 are hand written.

 

After hunting off and on for a while I have come to the conclusion the F4U-4C were in fact the F4U-4B which were built from April 1946.  So far no serial list or individual card I have seen mentions F4U-4C in the F4U-4 Bureau numbers, 80764 to 82177 = 1,414 aircraft, 96752 to 97390 = 639 less 97296 and 97634 to XF4U-5 = 637 total 2,051

 

F4U-4B serials were 97391 to 97531 = 141 less 97435 to XF4U-5 = 140, accepted from 30 April to November 1946 and 62915 to 63071 = 157, accepted November 1946 to August 1947, total 297 of which 11 were accepted as F4U-4P (references dispute exactly which 11).  A photograph of 97448, accepted 25 July 1946, has F4U-4C painted on the tail.

 

I know there were problems with the US built 20mm cannon and the conversion of 47 F4U-1C back to -1D supports the idea that after the 200 F4U-1C the next batch of cannon armed F4U were the F4U-4B, which were originally designated F4U-4C.

 

I assume there is a report that F4U-1D 50277 was converted to the -1C, not sure what "crash/cover aircraft as 82305" means, all I have is it was accepted as an F4U-1D on 19 October 1944.

[dogsbody]

This in from @Geoffrey Sinclair:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chris, for Geoffrey