Research question for HMS Renown - Fireship c1651

[Courageous]

I doubt I'll have much of a response but I'll give it a go. There is a long term quest to build(?) as many ships Renown as I can in 1/350 and although the 20th century is covered, the age of sail is a different story.

According to Wiki, the earliest Renown was a captured French 24(?) 'Renommee' that was converted to fireship in c.1651. Threedecks.org list the same details but there is a little bit conflict as to whether the ship was Dutch or French? My limited research finds that in 1651, England wasn't having any conflict with France but was with Holland, so to me, the likelihood is that it was Dutch but where did the other source get 'Renommee' from as that's not Dutch?

If nothing comes from this query, I may just build both small ships, remove some guns and call that it but I'd sooner only do the one.

If someone like @Bertie McBoatface can maybe use his contacts at MSW or elsewhere to help, that would be great.

TIA

 

Stuart

[Bertie McBoatface]

This is an interesting question and wikipedia contradicts itself at least twice.

 

The First Anglo Dutch war didn't start until 1652. (wiki)

 

The first French Renommee wasn't laid down until 1653. (Wiki)

 

The English Civil Wars had a large naval aspect and "both sides sought continental support" so I guess that's how Renommee came to be involved.  https://www.military-history.org/books/the-british-civil-wars-at-sea-1638-1653.htm

 

My copy of Fireships by Peter Kirsch 2009 Seaforth Publishing, a huge tome on the subject, doesn't have an index entry for either Renommee or Renown. There are several chapters on the Anglo Dutch Wars though in which fireships were used by both sides, but unfortunately, none of them are named.

 

https://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=6152 <This site gives more information including battle honours and the captains' names It describes it as a 10 gun vessel after capture and a 24 gun vessel in French service. and dates the capture to December 1651. The site has a forum and invites questions. I think that's where I'd start, Stuart. I'd be very surprised if you ever found any drawings to base a model on though.

 

 

[Bertie McBoatface]

I've got a profile type picture of the second Renown (1747) was a 30-gun fifth rate, previously the French ship Renommée. She was captured in 1747 by HMS Dover and broken up in 1771. If you want it.

[Courageous]

19 minutes ago, Bertie McBoatface said:

very surprised if you ever found any drawings to base a model on though.

Thanks for popping by Bertie and I agree about a lack of a drawing. If I could tie down the data to say if it was Dutch or French it would be start as I think differed quite a lot in look. With so few guns it would most probably be a single deck 'frigate' and I could use something generic to 'represent' the fireship.

As for the 1747 Renommee (Renown), any help would be very welcome.

 

Stuart

[Bertie McBoatface]

 

  

 

This comes with the standard warning that a 'profile' as a reference is no better than copying someone else's model.

 

 

 

And a couple of Dutch fireship attacks from the Anglo-Dutch wars. They came from Kirsch op cit.

 

 

[Bertie McBoatface]

I bet you will find many illustrations of a  typical 17th century French 24 gun ship using Google image search. 

 

Likely modifications to the Renommee would include hinging the gunports at the bottom so they would fall open when the tackles burnt through, increasing the draught into the fire compartments; wooden chimneys on the decks; and a big sally port open on the quarter with an evacuation boat attached below it with a chain, not a rope. They would also fit grappling irons to the ends of the yards and to the bowsprit. I don't think they carried cannons though - who would want large amounts of gunpowder on their fireship?

 

A fireship was the guided missile of its day and prompted countermeasures including a screen of sloops etc which were to intercept and destroy or misdirect it. Like a destroyer screen today? 

[Seahawk]

From Ships of the Royal Navy by JJ Colledge & Ben Warlow (revised ed, Chatham, 2006):

 

RENOWN Fireship.  20 (guns?).  French RENOMMEE.  Captured 12 1651 by NONSUCH.  Sold 1654.

RENOWN 5th rate.  30 (guns?). 669 bm (669 tons displacement by builder's measurement), 127 x 35ft.  French RENOMMEE, captured 9.1747 by DOVER.  Broken up 5.1771 Woolwich.

RENOWN 4th rate.  50 (guns?) 1050 bm.  146 x 40.5ft.  (Launched) Fabian, Northam 4/12/1774.  (Named 19.11.1774 but stuck on ways).  Broken up 12/1794.

RENOWN (ex ROYAL OAK, renamed 17.1.1796) 3rd rate, 74.  1899 bm, 182 x 49.5ft.  (BU?) Dudman, Deptford, 2.5.1798.

RENOWN Screw 2nd rate.  91.  1319 x 244.5ft 34-8in, 1-68pdr, 56-32pdr.  Chatham DY 28.3.1857.  Sold 23.3.1870 to North German Confederation Navy.

 

And with that we move out of the sail era (the next RENOWN was a battleship later renamed VICTORIA and sunk in the infamous collision with CAMPERDOWN0.  But I can continue if you'd find it helpful.

 

There was also another RENOMMEE which was not renamed RENOWN.  5th rate, 38 guns, captured 20.7.1796 by ALFRED in West Indies.  BU 9.1810.

 

 

[Courageous]

Thanks @Bertie McBoatface, useful stuff but remember such details at 1/350 would hardly be noticeable. I have deliberately chosen the scale to show relative as we move from 1651 to submarine Renown. I have been  looking a certain 'Age of Sail' book but I'm afraid I'm not paying silly money for it.

3 hours ago, Seahawk said:

But I can continue if you'd find it helpfu

Cheers mate, more useful stuff. I have enough kits of HMS Renown/Repulse to cover key periods from when she was laid and I also have a kit for the battleship. I will start with the 1651 and learn from there.

 

Stuart

[Bertie McBoatface]

12 minutes ago, Courageous said:

useful stuff but remember such details at 1/350 would hardly be noticeable.

 

The whole ship will be but a shrimp. I thought it might be interesting though. 

[Courageous]

@Bertie McBoatface, came across this doc that will be very useful I think. Although the regulations are some 20 years after Renommee was built, I don't think that the proportions will be too far off and at 1/350...

 

Stuart