xebec Posted August 13, 2022 Posted August 13, 2022 So, as I wrap up my Fiat 2000 tank, I'm already looking at another project. As the title indicates, a RR armored car, probably 1920 pattern. I'm working with my 4 view drawings to get them to scale, and I'm running into a little confusion. The usual suspects, Tanks-Encyclopedia, Military Factory, Wikipedia all list the same dimensions- 4.93 M (L), 1.93 M (W), and 2.54 M (H). This last dimension is befuddling me, because, as I scale the drawing in length and width, the height simply doesn't correspond- too short. The reference points I'm using for height are the tire contact patch to the ground, and the top of the closed turret hatch. If I scale to 1/35, for example, The listed dimensions should be (rounding): L 141mm, W 55mm, H 73mm. My drawing, however, is showing: L 141mm, W 54mm, H 63mm. The source of these drawings is warwheels.net, but I also scaled the meng painting panels just to see if the discrepancy showed up there too, and it did. Are these drawings off? What am I missing here guys?
Kingsman Posted August 13, 2022 Posted August 13, 2022 (edited) 10mm is a loooong way off. The 1918/1920 turret was somewhat taller than the 1914 pattern, but inches only. Some cars had a little cupola atop the turret but that was not exactly common. OOB the Meng kit is a 1918 pattern as it does not have the solid disc wheels of the 1920 pattern. The Warslug kit copies the Bovington surviving car and has the 1924-pattern front fenders and running boards, which were common later replacements. Some of the difference might be taken up by the difference in diameter between early skinny and fatter desert tyres. Would a 1920 turret on desert tyres vs a 1914 turret on skinny tyres explain it? The light tank type 1924 pattern turret was even taller IIRC. Taken together the fatter tyres and taller turret could tot up to about a foot of extra height - 10mm-ish in 1/35. Edited August 13, 2022 by Kingsman addition 1
John Tapsell Posted August 13, 2022 Posted August 13, 2022 You'd also need to look at the chassis being used. The RR armoured car bodies were fitted to a variety of RR chassis over the years. Combine that with different turret heights, different tyre sizes and potentially different ride heights/ground clearance from different models of chassis and you will get significant variations in overall vehicle height. Remember also that older model armoured car bodies were transferred to new chassis on a piecemeal basis as the older chassis wore out (Units based overseas would often use locally purchased RR chassis and the conversions would be done in unit workshops rather than being factory refurbished), so the whole fleet would have been a broad mix with very few vehicles being completely identical by the mid 1920s, let alone the start of WWII. 1
Kingsman Posted August 13, 2022 Posted August 13, 2022 Annoyingly the Hayes book on the RR doesn't seem to have weights and measures. As a comparator the Olyslager data book covering WW1 says 7' 8", or 2.34m. Picture shows a 1914 pattern. 1
xebec Posted August 13, 2022 Author Posted August 13, 2022 I appreciate the insights and ideas. I have scaled several other drawings, as well as sideview photos of both real RR armored cars and scale models, just to get an idea of the "correct" proportions. None (inc. the 1920 with the desert tires and AA MG ring, the 1924 with the late turret, or even the Fordson) reach the 2.54 meter height. I have to assume, especially since the sources I listed all repeat the precise same measurements, that somebody got it wrong, and these numbers are simply a repetition of this error. 2 hours ago, Kingsman said: As a comparator the Olyslager data book covering WW1 says 7' 8", or 2.34m. Picture shows a 1914 pattern. The 1920 with the AA MG ring, and the 1924 seem to be quite close to this number, but it seems that the 1914 must have been shorter. I'm guessing at this point that I can go with the measurements I'm lifting off of my drawings, and won't be guilty of committing an error....at least not an error that everyone will agree upon.
John Tapsell Posted August 13, 2022 Posted August 13, 2022 In terms of the bodies, you'd need to track down the original Admiralty plans. Rolls Royce never manufactured armoured cars. They sold running chassis (with engine) to the War Department*, who then fitted an Admiralty-designed (ie Royal Navy) armoured body - often referred to as the 'Admiralty Pattern'. That was probably the only constant in the entire manufacture process. I presume they did the 1920 and 1924 Pattern designs as well. There was also a small run of an interim 1914/1920 Pattern cars done for the RAF (I think they were '14 Pattern bodies with '20 Pattern turrets). *this was standard practice for RR, even for their civilian customers. The customer was expected to commission a coachbuilder to make the bodywork to their own specification, although I'm sure RR maintained a list of 'recommended' coachbuilding companies and may even have acted as an agent for the customer (for a fee of course). 1
Kingsman Posted August 14, 2022 Posted August 14, 2022 IIRC the 1920 and 1924 Patterns, including the RAF Type A cars, were all built by Vickers. 1914 Pattern hulls were built by various people and varied a bit. Don't know about the 1918s, but there were only 3 or 6 of them anyway. OOB the Meng kit is a 1918 Pattern: taller-sided turret and wire wheels. Djiti's do the 1920 pattern disc wheels. I think that is all that's needed for a 1920 pattern. DEF, Djiti's and Panzer Art do desert wheels in resin. Resicast do resin and etched brass wire wheels. Friendship do the lower-sided turret with earlier driver's visor. 1
dcrfan Posted August 14, 2022 Posted August 14, 2022 Have you seen the Rolls Royce armoured car drawings published in MAFV Tankette many years ago? I have a box file of Rolls AC stuff. I will search it out tomorrow and see it can do anything to clarify your dilemma. Welcome to the murky world of Rolls Royce AFVs😟 1
Kingsman Posted August 14, 2022 Posted August 14, 2022 Now I'm really going to put the cat among the pigeons here. I've just measured the Bovington 1920 car and it comes out at 2.18m!! I measured it in sections for ease and accuracy. Good job I always carry a folding 1m ruler when I go there...... Floor to hull bottom edge = 650mm (on 1920 pattern solid rubber tyres) Hull height to top of driver's cab = 940mm Turret ring = 20mm Turret height = 570mm I'm 5ft 10 (1.78m) and the top of my head is about level with the bottom edge of the turret roof slope (1920 turret, remember). So 2.18m seems about right. 1
xebec Posted August 14, 2022 Author Posted August 14, 2022 16 hours ago, John Tapsell said: In terms of the bodies, you'd need to track down the original Admiralty plans. All very good insights. Do you know if such plans exist (or at least have been discovered by anyone)?
xebec Posted August 14, 2022 Author Posted August 14, 2022 5 hours ago, dcrfan said: Have you seen the Rolls Royce armoured car drawings published in MAFV Tankette many years ago? I have a box file of Rolls AC stuff. I will search it out tomorrow and see it can do anything to clarify your dilemma. Welcome to the murky world of Rolls Royce AFVs😟 That would be much appreciated. Do you know the year of that publication, by any chance? 1 hour ago, Kingsman said: Now I'm really going to put the cat among the pigeons here. I've just measured the Bovington 1920 car and it comes out at 2.18m!! I measured it in sections for ease and accuracy. Good job I always carry a folding 1m ruler when I go there...... Floor to hull bottom edge = 650mm (on 1920 pattern solid rubber tyres) Hull height to top of driver's cab = 940mm Turret ring = 20mm Turret height = 570mm I'm 5ft 10 (1.78m) and the top of my head is about level with the bottom edge of the turret roof slope (1920 turret, remember). So 2.18m seems about right. That is excellent. Very nice to have some verification off an actual vehicle.
John Tapsell Posted August 14, 2022 Posted August 14, 2022 5 hours ago, Kingsman said: Now I'm really going to put the cat among the pigeons here. I've just measured the Bovington 1920 car and it comes out at 2.18m!! See my original post about the armoured bodies being transferred to new chassis as the old ones wore out. Whilst the Bovvy example is a 1920 Pattern in principle, I very much doubt it still has the same chassis it was first issued with. Using the RAF vehicles of No.1 and No.2 Armoured Car Companies in the Middle East as examples, many had multiple chassis replacements over the inter-war period, using whatever commercial RR chassis was available from the factory at the time. I therefore think it's risky to make generalisations about the whole fleet on the basis of one example. Also with reference to your earlier post about the solid wheels being all that's needed to make a 1920 Pattern example, look more closely at the mudguard/fender designs. The 1920 Pattern generally had more flowing/curved front fenders, indicative of a later chassis and/or body being fitted. Also, the 1914 Pattern running boards doubled as unditching beams, whereas I believe the 1920 Pattern had permanent running boards with unditching beams carried below them. 1
dcrfan Posted August 14, 2022 Posted August 14, 2022 7 hours ago, xebec said: That would be much appreciated. Do you know the year of that publication, by any chance? Tankette Vol 17 No 4. 4 view drawing of 1924 Mk 1 with Frazer-Nash turret by Kerry Brunner. The drawing which features pneumatic tyres is published in 1/32 scale. There is no scale bar and obviously the different turret puts out the total height. The height to hull top is 54.65 mm so 1748.8 mm full size. Tankette Vol 18, No 1 . 4 view drawing of 1924 pattern Mk 1 by J.L. Rue. In the article accompanying the 1/72 drawing the author discusses the Brunner drawing and the significant differences between 1920 and 1924 variants. The drawing has a scale bar. The dimensions appear to be L 12' 4", W 6' 5", H 7' 6' to top of turret and 8' 4" to top of oblong domed cupola. Tanketter Vol 18 No 2. The same J.L. Rue 1925 Pat Mk 1 drawing published in 1/35th scale. 1
Kingsman Posted August 14, 2022 Posted August 14, 2022 The 1914, 18 and 20 Patterns all had the unditching boards stowed below the running boards and "flowing" front mudguards. The 1924 Pattern introduced the unditching board stowage above the running boards for easier access - although they could still be stowed below. This necessitated squaring off the rear ends of the front mudguards so that the boards fitted. The 24 Pattern arrangement was a common retrofit. AFAIK the Bovington 1920 car is still on its original chassis. 1
dcrfan Posted August 14, 2022 Posted August 14, 2022 (edited) In my collection of Rolls Royce stuff I have a reprinted 1910/00 Rolls catalogue. While I realise the chassis is too early for Armoured Cars the dimensions may assist. The catalogue identifies the changes that will be made to the 1911 model with no changes effecting the data below. Further it details both 'short type' (wheelbase 134 1/2")and 'long type' chassis. I believe the armoured cars were on long chassis so data below: Total length 189" Width of frame 36" Wheelbase 142 1/2" Wheel track 56" Total length behind dash 102 1/4" From dash to centre of back wheels 92 1/2" Tyres on front wheel 895 mm x 135 mm Tyres offer wheel 895 mm x 135 mm As the tyres are quoted in metric I assume they were sourced from Europe. The wheels are artillery pattern with wooden spokes. In the catalogue pictures there is a mix of wooden and wire spoke wheels. I suppose there was still the historical trust in wooden spokes😄 Some of the testimonials are classic such as the running costs '2 3/4d a mile including petrol, oil, tyres and repairs, all except this present overhaul'. However the overhaul is after only 7,300 miles. 🙄 Edited August 14, 2022 by dcrfan 1
John Tapsell Posted August 15, 2022 Posted August 15, 2022 10 hours ago, Kingsman said: The 1914, 18 and 20 Patterns all had the unditching boards stowed below the running boards and "flowing" front mudguards. I beg to differ - the '14 Pattern did not have permanent running boards - the unditching beams/boards doubled as running boards when stowed (as per the image below). Later ('20 and '24) Patterns introduced a permananent running board with unditching boards stowed below (or above) them as seen on the 1920 Pattern at Bovvy (bottom image). The front fenders on the '14 Pattern are quite basic in style, whilst those on the '20 Pattern are clearly pressed steel with curved outer edges - more civilian in style. Note also the difference in the driver's vision slot positions on the '14 and '20 Pattern vehicles. The vents in the armoured radiator doors were added on later Pattern cars but were not present on the '14 Pattern vehicles. 1
xebec Posted August 16, 2022 Author Posted August 16, 2022 (edited) Ok, to further complicate matters, I think I've settled on modelling this vehicle- one of the HMAC Active cars: It appears to me that this has a peculiar mixture of features: 1920 pattern fenders, swept to the running board, with the unditching plank stowed beneath, large pneumatic wheel/tire, 1914 pattern low turret with a Lewis AA mount atop, 1914 type visor slits, and 1914 type radiator doors, 1920 type headlamps. If anyone can shed some light on the following, I would very much appreciate it: - What color were these vehicles? They certainly don't appear to be tan/sand. I assume they were green? - What is the purpose/significance of the emblem above the Vickers? - What is the purpose/significance of the half circle marking on the hood in the first photo? It appears to be painted over a darker rectangle-any insights as to the color of the darker area? - The triangular "flag" with the "A" marking at the top of the radiator- what might that be, and what color would it have been? Thanks for any assistance. Travis Oh, edited to add one more question- What is the vehicle that is following? It appears to be on the same sort of RR chassis.... Edited August 16, 2022 by xebec spelling
John Tapsell Posted August 16, 2022 Posted August 16, 2022 (edited) Welcome to the world of RAF armoured cars. This appears to be 'A' Section (the little pennant with 'A' on it) of No.2 Armoured Car Company, Royal Air Force. No.2 ACC didn't officially name their vehicles but they carried two or three digit numbers prefixed with an 'A' (you can see this is A124). The shield/crest is the badge of No.2 ACC (http://www.rafht.co.uk/index.php/2016/06/23/no-2-armoured-car-company/). Each ACC typically had 3-4 Sections. Each Section (depending on the period) operated 2-6 Rolls ACs, a couple of W/T (wireless) tenders (RR chassis for preference), sometimes a couple of Model T gun trucks (often with twin Vickers K guns mounted in a scarfe ring taken from damaged aircraft in the cargo body) and sometimes a 'heavy tender' for supplies. No.1 and No.2 Armoured Car Companies, Royal Air Force were the primary British land units in Iraq and Transjordan for most of the interwar years (the RAF provided all land-based security forces in Iraq apart from locally raised Iraq Levies, commanded by RAF officers). The following vehicle is a RR Wireless Tender. The rear vehicle is (I think) a Crossley 6x4 Tender. Colour was generally 'green' - probably a sun-faded Bronze Green. The roundel on the turret top was the standard RAF roundel as are the two on the sides of the engine compartment (the nature of some types of film stock of this period often made dark blue look lighter and red looked darker in photographs) but I'm unsure what the marking on the top of bonnet/hood relates to. The first armoured car is a '14 Pattern body on a later chassis. I suspect the second armoured car is the same. This is the point I made previously about armoured bodies being transferred to new chassis as the old ones wore out (often several times over their lifespan). The best and most detailed history (600+ pages) of the RAF Armoured Car Companies is 'In Every Place' by Nigel Warwick. It covers their service throughout the interwar years and during WWII and includes lots of incidental detail on the armoured cars plus a good selection of images. (https://www.rafregimentheritagecentre.co.uk/product/in-every-place-the-raf-armoured-cars-in-the-middle-east-1921-1953/). Edited August 16, 2022 by John Tapsell 1
xebec Posted August 16, 2022 Author Posted August 16, 2022 That is awesome info John- very much appreciated. (Love to get a copy of that book, but it looks like they only ship inside the UK....I'll need to make do without it.)
dcrfan Posted August 17, 2022 Posted August 17, 2022 I had no problem getting them to ship a copy of in 'Every Place' o New Zealand. They just had to get a shipping price before I could pay. The book is an excellent read. 1
xebec Posted August 17, 2022 Author Posted August 17, 2022 8 hours ago, dcrfan said: I had no problem getting them to ship a copy of in 'Every Place' o New Zealand. They just had to get a shipping price before I could pay. The book is an excellent read. Ok-I'll see if I can get them to ship it stateside then. Seems like a great value at the price.
Brandy Posted October 16, 2023 Posted October 16, 2023 I've just stumbled across this thread. Thanks for all the info guys. I'm planning on building the 1:72 Roden 1920 pattern car as an earlier model with the Arabian detachment during WWI. I knew about the turret and driver's vision slits, but the rest (particularly running boards) is great info. Anyone have anything more specific for these vehicles? I have a copy of an article taken from "Masters of Mayhem" - I need to get the book! Ian
Orso Posted October 16, 2023 Posted October 16, 2023 (edited) I backdated the Roden 1920 car to a WW1 looking version https://www.baecklund.eu/scalemodels/72/rr-arm.html What I like to do now is to build one on a Fordson chassis but I'm struggling to find info for that conversion. Edited October 16, 2023 by Orso
Orso Posted October 16, 2023 Posted October 16, 2023 I wish that I had found this before I built mine: https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/97850-rolls-royce-armoured-cars/ Lots of pictures showing details I hadn't seen when I built my 1914 car.
Kingsman Posted October 20, 2023 Posted October 20, 2023 (edited) There are plenty of Fordson photos online. You would need to lengthen the chassis to 158"/4.01m wheelbase, and the engine cover, hull and rear body to match -, and find new wheels from somewhere. Initially the turret was fitted with a mounting for a single Lewis gun, later changed to an aircraft Scarff Ring with twin stripped Lewis guns and finally twin 0.303 Brownings. Some had a 0.50" AN/M2 MG in place of the Boys Rifle. BTW, after conversion the cars ceased to be called Rolls-Royces: there were no R-R parts left. They became Fordsons, named after the chassis maker. 1920 Pattern hulls were built by Vickers but the cars took their name from the brand of chassis they were built on. Pictures from Engines Of The Western Allies in WW2 for discussion purposes only. Edited October 20, 2023 by Kingsman addition
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