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Washing off Decal Fix


Vlad

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I've noticed that DecalFix can cause weirdness in the subsequent matt coat, so I usually try to wash the model with water after the decals have all set and dried. On a recent project I had some large decals, so I was applying DecalFix very liberally.

 

When it came to washing, I noticed that as soon as I put the water on, huge white patches appeared where the dry DecalFix was. I was having some success scrubbing them off, added a little bit of soap, but I had to stop when I was rubbing so hard I knocked a stencil off. Now the water has dried, I have huge white stains all over the model, that won't come off with more water or any level of scrubbing that won't destroy the decals and even the paint underneath. Any suggestions on what I can use to get this off?

 

Thanks!

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I sometimes get this and I believe it is a reaction between the gloss coat I use (Future) and either water or the decal solution, or both. It occurs with both acrylic and lacquer paint. I do find that if it is left for a few days without attention it will disappear unless it is beneath the decal itself. From bitter experience I found that trying to clean it was the worst possible thing to do as it only made it worse or sometimes permanent. In any case a coat of Future usually clears it completely - again unless it is beneath the decal.

 

It does not always happen and I can't seem to find a consistent set of circumstances when it will. However in general when I steer away from decal solutions and just use Future it only occurs rarely. You can get the effect of a decal solution just using diluted Future unless the decals are very thick.

 

It has always intrigued me and I wonder if anyone knows what might be going on. My water supply is soft and very slightly on the acidic scale (not by much) so maybe that has something to do with it.

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Yes, this only happened when I tried to clean it. The excess setting solution was mostly invisible after it had dried, I could see it under certain light conditions and I knew it was there obviously. The reason I started cleaning models is because sometimes in the past, varnishing over the decals caused this reaction and made the varnish mily/frosty. But now I got the problem worse than I ever had it with just water!

 

It's not beneath the decals, in fact it isn't really on the decals that much. It's mostly on the surounding paint where it had run off while I was applying it, or where I inadvertantly spread it during washing. This lends some weight to your theory it's a reaction with the gloss coat (Revell Aqua).

 

For Matt coats I use Winsor and Newton acrylic varnish. All my paints are water based so I doubt they would dissolve or absorb the stains, I don't want to risk crossing my fingers and doing that just yet.

 

Since it's too late to not clean it, what else could I try cleaning it with that won't ruin the decals? Washing up liquid? Something stronger?

Edited by Vlad
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I don't think any sort of washing is going to do any good as I believe this is a chemical reaction in the surface of the paint/decal fix/gloss coat etc. That is why leaving it may help as the reaction seems to reverse itself eventually. In other words there is nothing to wash.

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If you are talking about decalfix from Hunbrol, this liquid is an diluted gloss varnish by itself, if you apply it on a matt surface you will see it.

 

You did not mention what paint you did use. Some paints react badly to some of the decal liquids, for example Mission Models + Microscale Microsol and Microset caused first discolorations on a paint for me and then worked as paint stripper...

Edited by Casey
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I don’t think Decalfix IS a gloss varnish unless it’s changed recently… Humbrol’s Future/Pledge thingy is called Clear. There is a chemical reaction between the vinegary decal sol/set solutions and acrylic clears like Future. How severe depends on the strength of the solution and how long the clear coat has dried for. It seems to range from whitening/going back milky all the way to curdling into gloopy mush. I never use the two together: I either use decal softener over enamel/acrylic paint that’s dried, or use clear as a decal setter, putting some on wet where the decal is going and brushing some over the top. It usually pulls the decal firmly down as it cures…

best,

M.

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6 minutes ago, cmatthewbacon said:

I don’t think Decalfix IS a gloss varnish unless it’s changed recently

I would love to see SDS for decalfix to get that mystery solved.

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Yes, I'm talking about Humbrol DecalFix. I use Humbrol and Revell Acrylic paints. I have said that the gloss coat the decals went on is Revell Aqua Clear Gloss. It was dry for several days before I did the decals, but as I said I used the DecalFix very liberally in this case because some decals were large (D-day stripes as big one piece items for example). Although there was no initial reaction. The reaction happened when I tried to clean off dry excess, again several days after decal application.

 

I didn't think a varnish would suck the decals down into panel lines etc. but that's interesting. I have been using DecalFix for a long time without serious issue, but this is giving me pause about continued use.

Edited by Vlad
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2 hours ago, Casey said:

You did not mention what paint you did use. Some paints react badly to some of the decal liquids, for example Mission Models + Microscale Microsol and Microset caused first discolorations on a paint for me and then worked as paint stripper...

I'm not sure that this is anything to do with the type of paint. I have had the same thing occasionally happen with Tamiya Acrylic, Tamiya Lacqour, Vallajo Model Air and Mig Ammo Acrylic. The randomness* makes me think it is more something to do with the particular decals, the adhesive film they use and how it reacts to the gloss coat and/or fixing solution. Water softness/acidity might be another factor.

 

*obviously not really random - maths bods always used to tell me off for using this term.

Edited by Pete F
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11 minutes ago, Vlad said:

I use Humbrol and Revell Acrylic paints. I have said that the gloss coat the decals went on is Revell Aqua Clear Gloss. It was dry for several days before I did the decals, but as I said I used the DecalFix very liberally in this case because some decals were large (D-day stripes as big one piece items for example). Although there was no initial reaction. The reaction happened when I tried to clean off dry excess, again several days after decal application.

 

I didn't think a varnish would suck the decals down into panel lines etc. but that's interesting. I have been using DecalFix for a long time without serious issue, but this is giving me pause about continued use.

A lot of people have successes using simply diluted floor polish instead of decal fix to eliminate the silvering -

 

Combine it with some form of decal softener and thats most probably what DecalFix is, but until I see the SDS I can only speculate by looking of how it behaves in practice. It does leave permanent glossy residue on matte paint.

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Not sure what you mean by SDS, my bottle doesn't have an "ingredients" list and the website only offers "a water based solution...", so I don't know what the active ingredient is that does the softening.

 

Thanks for the link for the Klear thread.

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33 minutes ago, Vlad said:

Not sure what you mean by SDS, my bottle doesn't have an "ingredients" list and the website only offers "a water based solution...", so I don't know what the active ingredient is that does the softening.

 

Thanks for the link for the Klear thread.

SDS is a Safety Data Sheet detailing the composition of the product. It is intended for safety purposes and should list all the ingredients and their safety precautions. Some companies go quite open about their products, for example I found Tamiya SDSes that actually give the % ratios of pigment composition in their paints.

 

Humbrol is much more secretive for some unknown reasons. Maybe we should look for the

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safety_data_sheet

 

Here are examples of one I found: http://www.hegner.co.uk/downloads/msds/SDS0161.pdf for Polycement produced by Colart Fine Art & Graphics Limited for Humbrol,

Humbrol Matt/Satin/Gloss spray - https://safety365.sevron.co.uk/substances/accessSDS/SDS-6041-577288528b6b11.58665871

 

I have ones for enamel paints and so on but I cant find Decalfix SDS that easily for some weird reason.

 

Probably same reason why it is easier to find a link to humbrol mythical 3D printer on their page than the safety sheet of their really available probably not safe to drink liquid ;) (https://support.humbrol.com/hc/en-gb/articles/5615501361682-Humbrol-Creator-3D-Mini-Printer)

 

Edited by Casey
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Humbrol will supply the Safety Data Sheeets for any of their products - just send them a request by e-mail.

 

Humbrol have a series of"how to use" their product videos on their youtube channel - this is the Decalfix video and I have just had a quick look at it.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7Ywau87mo4&t=1s

 

At about 1:50 they recommend wiping away any excess Decalfix immediately after the decal has been applied.  At about 3:00 minutes there is an interesting comment about using Decalfix on top of their Clear Gloss Varnish. They say that as both the Clear the Decalfix are ammonia based then the Decalfix should be diluted with water to prevent it damaging the gloss finish.

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I've occasionally had the white staining or more usually lightening  from decal solution.  This was microset/sol over Klear (Future) on Tamiya acrylics.  It's always disappeared after a day or two, and/or because I put another coat of Klear over - because I read this evens out the glossiness of paint vs decals - before applying a satin or Matt varnish.

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Nearly 2 days now and the stains show no signs of fading or going away.

 

However, I tested a slightly counter-intuitive tip I got elsewhere: more DecalFix. Brush some onto the stain, the stain goes away, wipe it off immediately without letting it dry, stain doesn't return!

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7 hours ago, Vlad said:

Nearly 2 days now and the stains show no signs of fading or going away.

 

However, I tested a slightly counter-intuitive tip I got elsewhere: more DecalFix. Brush some onto the stain, the stain goes away, wipe it off immediately without letting it dry, stain doesn't return!

 

If something works counter intuitive, it is awesome thing because it allows new understanding.

 

Here is my quick theory:

 

DecalFix may be containing some form of paint stripper (like Tamiya one). It may react to the top surface, and not cause the discoloration itself but make surface delicate and combined with whatever you did to it modified the surface to effectively became more matte, which gives 'white patch' effect.

 

For now this is theory but maybe it would be worth setting up an experiment to confirm or invalidate it - that kind of troubleshooting guide would be very useful for others.

 

First step is to make the process repeatable., but I do not have revel coat so I can't test it out quickly. Any volunteers?

 

 

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Just to confirm that has mostly cleaned off rather well now by the above method of applying more DecalFix to the stains then wiping it away while still wet. Model is salvaged and now matt-coated to boot with no further trouble.

 

However, I do not have the time or mental energy at the moment to be the guinea pig for reproducing and testing what went wrong!

 

Thanks all again for your contributions.

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