Project #2 : Round Table Class Minesweeper HMS Sir Lancelot (1/96th scratchbuild)

[Bandsaw Steve]

I Love what you are doing on this one!

 

I particularly like what you have done with the plating. I have to make a similar ‘to plate or not to plate’ decision on Xantho soon and you are pushing me in the ‘have a crack at it’ direction. 🤔

[theskits62]

On 10/6/2022 at 8:38 AM, Bandsaw Steve said:

I Love what you are doing on this one!

 

I particularly like what you have done with the plating. I have to make a similar ‘to plate or not to plate’ decision on Xantho soon and you are pushing me in the ‘have a crack at it’ direction. 🤔

Thanks ! Haven't had a chance to do much since my last post but as soon as I get some paint on it I will add an update so you can get a clearer view. I've also been thinking about adding rivetting to the plates using this type of thing https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/HGW322024 but not sure if that will be ott.

[theskits62]

Finally found some time to get some more work done on this. The transom was first which was mostly strips of Evergreen apart from around the stern which is too curved to take the strip so for this I got out the tracing paper and then cut out the rough shape of the rail from plastic sheet. Once this was fixed in place some gentle sanding allowed me to blend it into the evergreen strips.

 

Next job is to build up the main components of the superstructure, again all from plastic card. For the main base I used 1.5mm card after i'd made a template from paper to capture the curve of the deck. For the wheel house i used thinner 0.5mm card to make the windows simpler and then braced this internally with thicker card for strength.

 

 

 

Edited October 18, 2022 by theskits62

[dickrd]

On 9/2/2022 at 11:48 AM, theskits62 said:

 

 

Corticene seems to have been used widely for non slip decking from WW1 onwards but at some point semtex (no relation to the explosive) seems to have come in. Whereas the former consisted of sheets of non slip matting held in place by brass strips (a mid brown in colour), the latter was painted or trowelled on the decks and could be green, blue, grey and possibly other colours. I have no idea what is appropriate here and am inclined to go for a green semtex but i'd be interested to hear if anyone has any views on this.....

 

 

 Just come across this thread and this question. Whilst Semtex could be pigmented by the manufacturer to any colour desired, in practice everything I have come across re WW2 wartime supplied Semtex says it was grey.  That said I am curious as to the extent to which Semtex was actually used on armed trawlers such as Sir Lancelot. Furthermore, at the time she entered service an acute rubber shortage was developing and the use of Semtex was restricted to the weather decks and gun platforms of destroyers and the gun platforms of other ships only where this was "essential" and for which latex coverings had been approved.   Do John Lambert's plans or, more importantly, the "As Fitted" plans you saw at the Brass Foundry show it? The As Fitteds are normally very good at detailing what was to be used ("approved") where on decks.  

[theskits62]

6 hours ago, dickrd said:

 Just come across this thread and this question. Whilst Semtex could be pigmented by the manufacturer to any colour desired, in practice everything I have come across re WW2 wartime supplied Semtex says it was grey.  That said I am curious as to the extent to which Semtex was actually used on armed trawlers such as Sir Lancelot. Furthermore, at the time she entered service an acute rubber shortage was developing and the use of Semtex was restricted to the weather decks and gun platforms of destroyers and the gun platforms of other ships only where this was "essential" and for which latex coverings had been approved.   Do John Lambert's plans or, more importantly, the "As Fitted" plans you saw at the Brass Foundry show it? The As Fitteds are normally very good at detailing what was to be used ("approved") where on decks.  

 

Thanks for the information. Unfortunately when i went to the Brass Foundry i wasn't looking at the Round Table ships that only started later (long story). The MMI plans and the other sources i've found don't really specify one way or the other. The only thing i found is a mention that the area around the forward gun was covered in coconut matting which is backed up by one of the photos in the book (not a round table) which shows 2 semi circles or something laced together around the gun !

 

 

I agree it sounds like corticene would have been unlikely but so too semtex by the sounds of it. I think i'll just go with the deck green for now, although it might be a month or 2 before i get there.

[dickrd]

4 hours ago, theskits62 said:

 

I agree it sounds like corticene would have been unlikely but so too semtex by the sounds of it. I think i'll just go with the deck green for now, although it might be a month or 2 before i get there.

 Yes, I suspect just areas of bare steel deck, possibly some wooden deck, and coir matting at the gun position is most likely.  Where has your idea of green for the deck come from please? 

[theskits62]

30 minutes ago, dickrd said:

 Yes, I suspect just areas of bare steel deck, possibly some wooden deck, and coir matting at the gun position is most likely.  Where has your idea of green for the deck come from please? 

I was talking with another member about the corticene/semtex issue (he is also working on the same ship but further ahead than me). We came to the conclusion either was as likely as the other, i don't think we considered that it might actually be the case the neither was used ! Without any firm info i decided to just go with one of the possible semtex colours mainly for reasons of aesthetics .

[dickrd]

It was a well-understood principle that guided RN practice from the outset of WW2 that “unless decks are darkened they appear light in tone from the air and contrast with the relatively darker tones of the sea background.”

 

Having done a bit of digging these are the Fleet Orders in force during the period we are talking about:

 

 

Re the generic dark and light greys, I suspect that these were the British Standard neutral greys Nos. 32 and 31.

 

The non-slip deck paints could also be made available in the official camouflage colours if required. This was to enable a camouflage pattern from the side of a ship to be continued across the horizontal surfaces, something briefly in vogue on some ships c1941-c1942. But none of these official camouflage colours was a straight "green" and I cannot see a request for non-slip deck paint in a bespoke colour for a ship as insignificant as a trawler being entertained by the RN supply system.   

 

To my mind everything points to the steel decks of a WW2 armed trawler as having been most likely painted dark grey.

[theskits62]

1 hour ago, dickrd said:

It was a well-understood principle that guided RN practice from the outset of WW2 that “unless decks are darkened they appear light in tone from the air and contrast with the relatively darker tones of the sea background.”

 

Having done a bit of digging these are the Fleet Orders in force during the period we are talking about:

 

 

Re the generic dark and light greys, I suspect that these were the British Standard neutral greys Nos. 32 and 31.

 

The non-slip deck paints could also be made available in the official camouflage colours if required. This was to enable a camouflage pattern from the side of a ship to be continued across the horizontal surfaces, something briefly in vogue on some ships c1941-c1942. But none of these official camouflage colours was a straight "green" and I cannot see a request for non-slip deck paint in a bespoke colour for a ship as insignificant as a trawler being entertained by the RN supply system.   

 

To my mind everything points to the steel decks of a WW2 armed trawler as having been most likely painted dark grey.

 

Thankyou for that. Damn, looks like the green will have to go then. Looking at the colourcoats range i can see a NARN23 (dark grey non-slip deck) would you say that looks like the most obvious choice?

[dickrd]

I have always used Colourcoats MS2 (but this goes back a couple of decades). This should be a neutral grey of a reflectance factor closest to the contemporary WW2 reflectance factor of BS381c No. 32 which is the shade that I suspect the generic dark grey of the non-slip deck paint then came in. However, when trying to explain certain variations seen in photos, I have speculated that the rougher surface of a non-slip paint would make it appear slightly darker than the smooth finish of a paint nominally of the same shade if they were placed side by side, so the realist might go for something slightly darker.

 

I have discovered that I have a photo of Sir Lancelot in my collection and your suspicion that she would have been painted Home Fleet grey appears correct. She also appears to be following the then policy for trawlers of no (black) boot topping but with the bottom compositions brought up to the previous upper boot top line.

 

Also photo FL 19114 in the IWM collection appears to show the same.

 

Edited October 30, 2022 by dickrd

[theskits62]

3 hours ago, dickrd said:

I have always used Colourcoats MS2 (but this goes back a couple of decades). This should be a neutral grey of a reflectance factor closest to the contemporary WW2 reflectance factor of BS381c No. 32 which is the shade that I suspect the generic dark grey of the non-slip deck paint then came in. However, when trying to explain certain variations seen in photos, I have speculated that the rougher surface of a non-slip paint would make it appear slightly darker than the smooth finish of a paint nominally of the same shade if they were placed side by side, so the realist might go for something slightly darker.

 

I have discovered that I have a photo of Sir Lancelot in my collection and your suspicion that she would have been painted Home Fleet grey appears correct. She also appears to be following the then policy for trawlers of no (black) boot topping but with the bottom compostions brought up to the previous upper boot top line.

 

Also photo FL 19114 in the IWM collection appears to show the same.

 

 

Thanks again, useful info on the boot topping and also interesting that the photo also seems to show the top section of the funnel painted black (the demarcation with the lower section being too crisp for it to be a sooty residue). I don't think i've seen that on other pictures of the class.

[robgizlu]

On 10/20/2022 at 10:56 AM, dickrd said:

I have always used Colourcoats MS2 (but this goes back a couple of decades). This should be a neutral grey of a reflectance factor closest to the contemporary WW2 reflectance factor of BS381c No. 32 which is the shade that I suspect the generic dark grey of the non-slip deck paint then came in. However, when trying to explain certain variations seen in photos, I have speculated that the rougher surface of a non-slip paint would make it appear slightly darker than the smooth finish of a paint nominally of the same shade if they were placed side by side, so the realist might go for something slightly darker.

 

I have discovered that I have a photo of Sir Lancelot in my collection and your suspicion that she would have been painted Home Fleet grey appears correct. She also appears to be following the then policy for trawlers of no (black) boot topping but with the bottom compostions brought up to the previous upper boot top line.

 

Also photo FL 19114 in the IWM collection appears to show the same.

 

 

Dick - I follow your comments but am mindful that in C.B.3098 Camouflage of ships at sea the document advocates B30 decks for "Western approaches" with the caveat that it "may create an uncomfortable glare in sunlight and may not be practicable during the summer months."  I'm thinking of doing HMT Sir lamorack in white and was considering a B30 deck as above, though I completely follow your thoughts on on non-slip grey.  Any thoughts?

Rob

[dickrd]

@robgizlu

 

Hi Rob,

 

In the case of Sir Lancelot my guidance was in the context of a 1942 timeframe (and indeed a Home Fleet grey scheme). I was working from the orders/guidance in force at that time. There is a document dated 6th January 1943 stating that the RN camouflage policy then in force was as set out in CAFO 679/42 (May 1942) and CAFO 1112 (June 42).  CAFO 1112 does not mention decks.  CAFO 679 only mentions deck colour in relation to ships in dark Admiralty type schemes.  I think that it is particularly significant the CAFO 679, with its various WA schemes which were the product of Peter Scott’s partnership with the camouflage design team at Leamington, did not have anything to say about decks in WA schemes. During 1942 earlier guidance re darkening decks would therefore have stood (and of course B30 did not exist until May 1943).

 

It may also be relevant to the official thinking a bit later during 1942, and slightly closer to CB 3098R which was not published until May 1943, that AFO 4781 of October 1942 directs Coastal Forces, many of whose craft were in WA type schemes, to use a non-slip deck paint in “dark grey like Admiralty pattern 507A”.

 

As far as I can tell the first (and only) suggestion of a camouflage colour on the decks of ships in a WA scheme comes in May 1943 with CB 3098R as you have highlighted. But it’s worth reading the whole section ie paras 142 to 145 to put it in context: “maintaining painted decks …. a measure of doubtful merit”. It’s pretty tentative, as if they were saying ‘if you really feel you have to’! The phrase you have quoted: “B30 and lighter tones on deck may create an uncomfortable glare in sunlight and may be impractical” reads rather as laboratory theory rather than anything tried and tested. Overall their heart does not sound as if it was in it! Anyhow, that recommendation would have stood for 18 months until CAFO 2269 of October 1944 which ordered “No special deck painting is required for camouflage purposes”. This later instruction remained in force for the remainder of the war being repeated in various subsequent orders. So yes, if you are modelling a ship in a WA scheme in the time period May 1943 to October 1944 then B30 was “recommended” in CB3098R - but that was not an order, and I currently cannot find it mentioned in any Fleet order.

 

For Sir Lamorak May 1943 onwards I guess it’s then a question of do you think anyone on something with decks as small, cramped and hard-worked (dirty/battered) as an armed trawler would have thought it practical even to attempt a fairly light-toned deck camouflage paint?  I don’t have any clear aerial photos of trawlers in WA schemes May 1943 – Oct 1944, but I do have some of larger ships in WA schemes that can be positively dated to this timeframe and I don’t see anything as light on them as B30 would appear on an upward facing surface. Here are a few example images:

 

 

My guess is that most of the seagoing fraternity probably laughed the Leamington-based boffins' idea out of court. But, given that it is in CB3098R, doubtless some ship somewhere tried!

 

Your call!

 

Best wishes,

 

Richard

Edited October 28, 2022 by dickrd

[theskits62]

7 hours ago, robgizlu said:

 

Dick - I follow your comments but am mindful that in C.B.3098 Camouflage of ships at sea the document advocates B30 decks for "Western approaches" with the caveat that it "may create an uncomfortable glare in sunlight and may not be practicable during the summer months."  I'm thinking of doing HMT Sir lamorack in white and was considering a B30 deck as above, though I completely follow your thoughts on on non-slip grey.  Any thoughts?

Rob

 

19 minutes ago, dickrd said:

@robgizlu

 

Hi Rob,

 

In the case of Sir Lancelot my guidance was in the context of a 1942 timeframe (and indeed a Home Fleet grey scheme). I was working from the orders/guidance in force at that time. There is a document dated 6th January 1943 stating that the RN camouflage policy then in force was as set out in CAFO 679/42 (May 1942) and CAFO 1112 (June 42).  CAFO 1112 does not mention decks.  CAFO 679 only mentions deck colour in relation to ships in dark Admiralty type schemes.  I think that it is particularly significant the CAFO 679, with its various WA schemes which were the product of Peter Scott’s partnership with the camouflage design team at Leamington, did not have anything to say about decks in WA schemes. During 1942 earlier guidance re darkening decks would therefore have stood (and of course B30 did not exist until May 1943).

 

It may also be relevant to the official thinking a bit later during 1942, and slightly closer to CB 3098R which was not published until May 1943, that AFO 4781 of October 1942 directs Coastal Forces, many of whose craft were in WA type schemes, to use a non-slip deck paint in “dark grey like Admiralty pattern 507A”.

 

As far as I can tell the first (and only) suggestion of a camouflage colour on the decks of ships in a WA scheme comes in May 1943 with CB 3098R as you have highlighted. But it’s worth reading the whole section ie paras 142 to 145 to put it in context: “maintaining painted decks …. a measure of doubtful merit”. It’s pretty tentative, as if they were saying ‘if you really feel you have to’! The phrase you have quoted: “B30 and lighter tones on deck may create an uncomfortable glare in sunlight and may be impractical” reads rather as laboratory theory rather than anything tried and tested. Overall their heart does not sound as if it was in it! Anyhow, that recommendation would have stood for 18 months until CAFO 2269 of October 1944 which ordered “No special deck painting is required for camouflage purposes”. This later instruction remained in force for the remainder of the war being repeated in various subsequent orders. So yes, if you are modelling a ship in a WA scheme in the time period May 1943 to October 1944 then B30 was “recommended” in CB3098R - but that was not an order, and I currently cannot find it mentioned in any Fleet order.

 

For Sir Lamorak May 1943 onwards I guess it’s then a question of do you think anyone on something with decks as small, cramped and hard-worked (dirty/battered) as an armed trawler would have thought it practical even to attempt a fairly light-toned deck camouflage paint?  I don’t have any clear aerial photos of trawlers in WA schemes May 1943 – Oct 1944, but I do have some of larger ships in WA schemes that can be positively dated to this timeframe and I don’t see anything as light on them as B30 would appear on an upward facing surface. Here are a few example images:

 

 

My guess is that most of the seagoing fraternity probably laughed the Leamington-based boffins' idea out of court. But, given that it is in CB3098R, doubtless some ship somewhere tried!

 

Your call!

 

Best wishes,

 

Richard

Thanks both for your input - its really helpful getting the opinions of members who are far more knowledgeable in these matters than myself (as i've said before up until recently i was purely into aviation, then the ship bug bit me !) 

[robgizlu]

Sorry for "Blog-bombing", "theskits".  I've really enjoyed watching this unfold - fabulous job on the hull and the plating - superstructure looks great too!

Thanks Dick - makes lots of sense

Rob

[theskits62]

Not much progress over the last few weeks must pull my finger out ! Anyway couldn't resist rattle canning the hull plating to see how it will look and on the whole quite pleased. There are a few places that need some attention but on the whole i think it was worth the effort.

 

 

[robgizlu]

Well worth the effort I'd say - Take a bow young man 

Rob

[theskits62]

2 hours ago, robgizlu said:

Well worth the effort I'd say - Take a bow young man 

Rob

Lol - thanks but haven't been called a young man for a while !! Sixtieth b'day next weekend i was hoping to be retired by now but with inflation running hot i've resigned myself to another 2 or 3 years servitude before i can focus on the important stuff in life.

[robgizlu]

Younger than me .  Sorry to hear about the extended "servitude".  I jumped in July 

Rob

[ArnoldAmbrose]

4 minutes ago, robgizlu said:

Younger than me .  Sorry to hear about the extended "servitude".  I jumped in July 

Gidday @theskits62, younger than me too, I'm 66 next month. I jumped officially at Easter, although unofficially last December.    Hopefully you can shorten your extended servitude soon and get on with the important things in life - models.

Speaking of which, I think you've got some very good detail on that hull. 👍       And Happy Birthday next weekend.       Regards, Jeff.

[Courageous]

On 11/15/2022 at 1:50 PM, robgizlu said:

I jumped in July 

And still you're modelling rate hasn't gone up 

On 11/15/2022 at 2:02 PM, ArnoldAmbrose said:

get on with the important things in life - models.

See Rob @robgizlu, I'm not the only one...listen to us man 

 

Stuart

[theskits62]

It has been a few months since my last update, progress is running at a glacial pace unfortunately. I was away for a couple of months over xmas and then again in March while my body repaired itself after a skiing crash (that will teach me to go off piste with my 2 twenty something year old sons). Anyway it was nothing serious but it meant i couldn't walk for a couple of weeks and had to hop around. Back in Exmoor again now and have finally managed to spend some time building up the superstructure and main elements. At the moment i'm focusing on the basic shapes, the detailing will follow later. When i started this i thought (foolishly) that the smaller size would make this a quicker build but its actually proving a lot more complex than i thought and i never realised just how much "clutter" there is on a military ship's deck.

 

 

 

The large cowl vents are 3d printed (Shapeways), the smaller ones are made from brass sheet pressed in a dapping set to make a semi sphere which is then mounted on plastic rod and blended in with filler etc. The 2 gun platforms took ages to make and are quite fiddly. You can also see my first 3 samples of potential decking. Not sure if i'm happy with the colour of any of them yet, i want something that is quite muted and worn looking. The basic process with these is to cut 1.5mm strips of wood veneer and glue them to a thin piece of plasticard. A dark grey paint is then mixed into some polyfilla and this is forced into all the gaps etc. Once dry the whole thing is sanded back quite hard until it is smooth and finally a brown wash applied before this too is sanded back.

 

Anyway thats all for now folks, hopefully the next update won't be so long coming !!

 

 

 

[JohnWS]

Welcome back!  Looking forward to future updates.

 

John

[theskits62]

A bit more progress on the decking, 1.5 mm strips are glued in place, sanded back then grouted using polyfilla mixed with some buff paint. More sanding then then a grey/brown wash before a final sanding. I want it to look faded and worn so I might cut the colour back some more with some grey wash but for now i'll leave it as is i think.....

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Steve D]

Just spotted this thread, nice subject, I must buy that book. 

 

Everyone knows I hate plastic but you're doing a great job with it and nice to see some shell plating, that clipper stern is tough. 

 

Personally, I don't think individual planks can be used below 1:48th scale, sheet marking is finer, but you've set a high standard with this one, 👍

 

The maritime bug is strong, it's held me for over 25 years

 

Cheers

 

Steve