GiampieroSilvestri Posted August 9, 2022 Share Posted August 9, 2022 Is the Italeri 1/48 scale F-4J kit correct to build a allover dark sea blue Royal Navy aircraft? Thank you very much Saluti Giampiero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnT Posted August 9, 2022 Share Posted August 9, 2022 I dont think so. The F4-J was never used by the RN FAA The FAA used the FGR1 which, while still a phantom, is a whole different bird altogether. Rear end shape different to accommodate the Spey engines, Much bigger air intakes again for the engines and then some detail differences. You should look at some of the amazing work done on here to convert the Tamiya 1/32 F4-J into a UK FGR1/2 A big conversion methinks PS - you can use an F4-J to do an RAF one as when we were running short of Phantoms we acquired several J versions ex USN and 74 Sqn flew them as a stop gap 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenko Posted August 9, 2022 Share Posted August 9, 2022 In a word. NO. The Royal Navy Phantoms were Spey engined and are a totally different version to other Phantoms. The only kit available in 1/48 is the Hasegawa FGR 1. If you can find one at normal money. Dick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AntPhillips Posted August 9, 2022 Share Posted August 9, 2022 Unfortunately not, the Royal Navy only used the F-4K variant (Phantom FG.1 in British terminology). This was based on the F-4J but had the addition of British Rolls Royce Spey turbofan engines instead of the GE J-79 turbojet of the regular Phantom, this gave the British Phantoms a slightly chubbier look around the engine exhausts, they also had slightly larger intakes to allow greater airflow into the engines. It's a major conversion, in short if you want a RN Phantom get the Hasegawa kit. The RAF did get a squadron (74 Squadron) of F-4J's to fill the shortfall in air defence squadrons created by the need to provide air defence for the Falkland Islands after the war, these were only ever painted in the ADF grey scheme (initially using US equivalent colours and the they were then repainted in proper RAF colours during complex overhaul periods). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bentwaters81tfw Posted August 9, 2022 Share Posted August 9, 2022 RN phantoms were never all over dark sea blue. They were all Extra Dark Sea Grey over White. The EDSG did tend to fade somewhat as well, making for a bit of a washed out appearance. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daedalus72 Posted August 9, 2022 Share Posted August 9, 2022 If it helps, the Hasegawa FGR2 was fairly recently reissued by Revell so should be easy to find, and cheaper too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenko Posted August 9, 2022 Share Posted August 9, 2022 55 minutes ago, Daedalus72 said: If it helps, the Hasegawa FGR2 was fairly recently reissued by Revell so should be easy to find, and cheaper too! There are differences with the elevators. FGR1 RN. FGR2 RAF Dick 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lusitanian Posted August 9, 2022 Share Posted August 9, 2022 The stabilators of the Hasegawa kit are somewhat too small. There exists some resin replacement. FG.1 has stabilators with slotted leading edge. FGR.2 has not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antti_K Posted August 9, 2022 Share Posted August 9, 2022 Hello Giampiero, just as others have already said: look for the Hasegawa FG.1 kit or the Revell re-boxing which might be labeled as FGR.2 as well. The plastic is for the RN FG.1 with additional stabilizers, blanking plates for the bridle hook recesses and and another nose landing gear for the FGR.2. The kit isn't very accurate but it is the only one on the market. It builds into a nice model even if you decide not to fix the inaccuracies. Here's my Hasegawa FG.1(one of those with dual flight controls; included in the kit as well): Cheers, Antti 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GiampieroSilvestri Posted August 9, 2022 Author Share Posted August 9, 2022 (edited) I have the Revell of Germany boxing of the Hasegawa Phantom FGR2. Thank you very much for the replies. Saluti Giampiero Edited August 9, 2022 by GiampieroSilvestri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvi Posted August 9, 2022 Share Posted August 9, 2022 YES I picked one up over here in USA for about $40 So I imagine it should be that or cheaper in UK. Steve 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Brown Posted August 10, 2022 Share Posted August 10, 2022 11 hours ago, Antti_K said: Hello Giampiero, just as others have already said: look for the Hasegawa FG.1 kit or the Revell re-boxing which might be labeled as FGR.2 as well. The plastic is for the RN FG.1 with additional stabilizers, blanking plates for the bridle hook recesses and and another nose landing gear for the FGR.2. The kit isn't very accurate but it is the only one on the market. It builds into a nice model even if you decide not to fix the inaccuracies. Here's my Hasegawa FG.1(one of those with dual flight controls; included in the kit as well): Cheers, Antti Hi Antti, What accuracy issues does the kit have? I know the cockpit needs work, the kit lacks intakes, the main gear struts need additional details, and the fuselage panel lines seem to be a mix of FG.1 and FGR.2. Also, Hypersonic makes accurate replacement stabilators for Hasegawa F-4s. He also sells a very nice resin and photo etched canopy detail set that I think is a must-have for any Hasegawa, Academy, or Z-M F-4 kit. Ben 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GiampieroSilvestri Posted August 10, 2022 Author Share Posted August 10, 2022 I looked into the Revell of Germany Phantom FGR2 and it only has the shorter nose gear leg of the land based aircraft.Is the longer part included in another model? Thank you very much Saluti Giampiero 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tempestfan Posted August 10, 2022 Share Posted August 10, 2022 The RN type is not in itself "longer" I think but extendable to increase AoA on launch, and extended usually only on the catapult. The RN type has a second pair of scissor links for that extending section, so if you add this to the FGR.2 type, you should be close - unless you want it in launch position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GiampieroSilvestri Posted August 10, 2022 Author Share Posted August 10, 2022 Thank you very much again.I am sorry for the questions but the Phantom is not one of my favourite aircraft so I only know very little about it. Saluti Giampiero 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tempestfan Posted August 10, 2022 Share Posted August 10, 2022 35 minutes ago, GiampieroSilvestri said: the Phantom is not one of my favourite aircraft Saluti Giampiero Heresy! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bentwaters81tfw Posted August 10, 2022 Share Posted August 10, 2022 The FG1 had a double extending nose strut as @tempestfan says. Only used in launch mode. https://www.fleetairarm.com/exhibit/mcdonnell-phantom-fg1/3-5-32.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tailspin Turtle Posted August 10, 2022 Share Posted August 10, 2022 https://tailhooktopics.blogspot.com/2012/05/spey-powered-phantom-changes.html 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Des Posted August 11, 2022 Share Posted August 11, 2022 Perhaps a UK thing but weren't all the other Phantom variants merely an interesting sideline to the FG.1 and FGR.2? The differences between the UK Phantom variants themselves and between them and the F-4 line in general seems to be a recurring topic on the forum and by coincidence I came across an advert for this just released ebook yesterday - Building the British Phantoms Volume 1 by Geoff Coughlin and published by KLP Publishing , Volume 2 will follow concentrating on the FGR.2. PDF with 366 pages - https://www.klp.com.au/product/building-the-british-phantoms-volume-one/ - between half/two thirds on FG.1 modelling projects and the remainder with full-size aircraft imagery and background history including a table of FG.1/FGR.2 detail differences , cost is $AUS 20 which last night equated to £12.06 so excellent value for money to have a wealth of information at one's fingertips. Sadly , doesn't however answer a question I recall on a photographic forum many years ago - "I have an F-4E kit and wondered which RAF squadrons operated it?" - but with no mention of whether long/short gun nose , whether UK/RAFG based obviously impossible to answer. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bentwaters81tfw Posted August 11, 2022 Share Posted August 11, 2022 8 minutes ago, Des said: Sadly , doesn't however answer a question I recall on a photographic forum many years ago - "I have an F-4E kit and wondered which RAF squadrons operated it?" - but with no mention of whether long/short gun nose , whether UK/RAFG based obviously impossible to answer. Well as the F-4E had a slotted stab, then it was obviously RN not RAF. Easy really. 😉 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antti_K Posted August 11, 2022 Share Posted August 11, 2022 On 8/10/2022 at 12:15 PM, Ben Brown said: Hi Antti, What accuracy issues does the kit have? I know the cockpit needs work, the kit lacks intakes, the main gear struts need additional details, and the fuselage panel lines seem to be a mix of FG.1 and FGR.2. Also, Hypersonic makes accurate replacement stabilators for Hasegawa F-4s. He also sells a very nice resin and photo etched canopy detail set that I think is a must-have for any Hasegawa, Academy, or Z-M F-4 kit. Ben Hello Ben, The nose and front fuselage are accurate (one can even say, it's very accurate) up to FS 249,65. I compared the kit against the data given in F-4K Crew Chief Manual some AP drawings. The problem lies in the center fuselage. Here's my approach: Airfix did a LIDAR scan for their recent 1:72 scale kit. That of course created a great amount of 3D data that was then used for engineering the kit. Then they had to produce some drawings like decals placement guide. Most likely the same data was used. There is no sense in drawing a complete set of three views starting from scratch, if one already posses all that 3D data running in a suitable designing program. So I scaled the drawing up to 1:48 scale with my photocopier. Then I downloaded F-4K Cross Section drawing (copy of the original factory drawing) from Tommy Thomasson's web site (Tailhook Topics) and scaled it also up to 1/48 scale. The cross sections were perfect matches with Airfix stencil placement drawing. Finally I started to check the measurements from my new FG.1 drawing against those taken from a real aircraft. And again, a perfect match. At last it was time to start to check the model. Be careful with the Plane Captain's Manual though; not all given measurements are for the British Phantom but for an F-4B or -J! In plan view the Hasegawa FG.1 center fuselage is some 4 millimeters too narrow (I don't have my drawings and notes at hand). Another problem are the air intakes. There is a couple of millimeters missing from the intake mouth (the funnel is too short). I believe this is due worn moulds and/or low pressure during manufacture. When you look at the model from the side (look at my model) the curvature of the air intake funnels is wrong; it's very good for an F-4B or F-4J but not for British Phantoms. The highest point should be behind the cockpit. Look at the photos below. Another problem are the intake "mouths". Here are the correct measurements taken from the real thing: The intakes are slightly wider than those of F-4Bs and Js, and not just that tall. Quite many modellers say that British Phantoms had "some 20 %" wider engine intakes. They are both right and wrong at the same time. The intake funnel (inside the plane) is wider to handle a greater amount of supersonic air, but the intake mouth is roughly the same size as in US versions. Some further measurements from the real thing: And the "Splitter Plates". They are slightly different in size and shape than those used in F-4Bs and Js. Things get better towards to rear fuselage. I haven't checked these measurements against the kit yet. I did a stupid mistake with my FG.1 by replacing the kit's re-heaters with resin items. Their shape isn't good and they are too wide. So use the kit parts. I didn't go all the way as I didn't feel like building the whole center fuselage from scratch. At least at that point. Hopefully someone will produce an accurate British Phantom in 1/48 scale in the near future. I guess it would sell well... Hope this helps. Cheers, Antti 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozothenutter Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 12 hours ago, Antti_K said: Hello Ben, The nose and front fuselage are accurate (one can even say, it's very accurate) up to FS 249,65. I compared the kit against the data given in F-4K Crew Chief Manual some AP drawings. The problem lies in the center fuselage. Here's my approach: Airfix did a LIDAR scan for their recent 1:72 scale kit. That of course created a great amount of 3D data that was then used for engineering the kit. Then they had to produce some drawings like decals placement guide. Most likely the same data was used. There is no sense in drawing a complete set of three views starting from scratch, if one already posses all that 3D data running in a suitable designing program. So I scaled the drawing up to 1:48 scale with my photocopier. Then I downloaded F-4K Cross Section drawing (copy of the original factory drawing) from Tommy Thomasson's web site (Tailhook Topics) and scaled it also up to 1/48 scale. The cross sections were perfect matches with Airfix stencil placement drawing. Finally I started to check the measurements from my new FG.1 drawing against those taken from a real aircraft. And again, a perfect match. At last it was time to start to check the model. Be careful with the Plane Captain's Manual though; not all given measurements are for the British Phantom but for an F-4B or -J! In plan view the Hasegawa FG.1 center fuselage is some 4 millimeters too narrow (I don't have my drawings and notes at hand). Another problem are the air intakes. There is a couple of millimeters missing from the intake mouth (the funnel is too short). I believe this is due worn moulds and/or low pressure during manufacture. When you look at the model from the side (look at my model) the curvature of the air intake funnels is wrong; it's very good for an F-4B or F-4J but not for British Phantoms. The highest point should be behind the cockpit. Look at the photos below. Another problem are the intake "mouths". Here are the correct measurements taken from the real thing: The intakes are slightly wider than those of F-4Bs and Js, and not just that tall. Quite many modellers say that British Phantoms had "some 20 %" wider engine intakes. They are both right and wrong at the same time. The intake funnel (inside the plane) is wider to handle a greater amount of supersonic air, but the intake mouth is roughly the same size as in US versions. Some further measurements from the real thing: And the "Splitter Plates". They are slightly different in size and shape than those used in F-4Bs and Js. Things get better towards to rear fuselage. I haven't checked these measurements against the kit yet. I did a stupid mistake with my FG.1 by replacing the kit's re-heaters with resin items. Their shape isn't good and they are too wide. So use the kit parts. I didn't go all the way as I didn't feel like building the whole center fuselage from scratch. At least at that point. Hopefully someone will produce an accurate British Phantom in 1/48 scale in the near future. I guess it would sell well... Hope this helps. Cheers, Antti This post would be better with pictures..😉 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Brown Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 Thanks for the reply, Antti! Unfortunately, the pictures are just showing up as little boxes that say "spacer.png." Ben 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antti_K Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 Thanks for the "Heads Up" guys. It seems there is something wrong with my Villagephotos account as some people can see the pictures and some don't. Do I need to start all over again with a new service provider? Cheers, Antti Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tempestfan Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 Clicking on the "spacer.png" and then on the tiny photo symbol shows the pics for me - a bit awkward but it works. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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