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Battleship Bretagne - France - 3D realisation - 1:200 scale


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10 hours ago, Iceman 29 said:

In short, one can think of wasting time looking at a hundred photos in a loop and think that one is going to miss something.

If I can echo that Pascal.  The first stage is always study and study more.  In the UK, the admiralty plans you can obtain show updates through the years so having the drawings is only the beginning of a long voyage (if you can excuse the pun).  As vessels were modified over time, the drawings were (sometimes) updated, but some views not, so a full set of drawings contain inconsistencies.  Unravelling this and understanding the vessel at a point in time is a serious endeavour.  I can only begin to image the challenges you are overcoming for a battleship.  Your work is a PHD and of course your drawing skills are unrivalled :clap:

 

I enjoy each update, I've always been a sucker for drawings

 

Cheers

 

Steve 

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Thanks for the encouragement guys, it's going slowly.

 

I'm still focused on the central part of the first and second deck, at the turret level, the bakery on starboard and the crew's galley on port.

 

I also drew the sketch of the aft stack.

 

The photo taken from the top of the aft mature is extremely rare for the time and very useful, you can see the protections around the turret and many other things, to my knowledge it is the only photo of the second deck.

 

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2 hours ago, Steve D said:

Great photograph, love the crane and the rails for moving the ships boats around.. 

 

Fantastic detail, deck shoots are just the best source

 

Cheers

 

Steve

Could not have said it better

Rob

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Yes, it's real job! 😓

 

For the printing I am rather confident, as the projects go on, we foresee the things during the drawing and we avoid the known stupidities if possible. 🙄😜

 

I almost completed  the finishing of the fore stack.

 

The difficult exercise was to draw the 2 spiral stairs in front of the stack.

 

But it's not too bad for a first. Two good hours of drawing and finding the right method.  

 

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There is something so characteristically stylish (to the point of being slightly unnecessarily so) about that curved ladder that just screams "French". You would never see such frivolity on a RN ship!

 

Will

Edited by Killingholme
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I have been working on the front mast mainly, these last few days.

 

There are two accesses to the navigation lights to service them in the middle of the main mast, the mast is hollow, access is by climbing down an inside ladder from the crow's nest.

 

If anyone has pictures/plans of the triplex rangefinder and searchlights, I'm interested.

 

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"The effectiveness of shipborne artillery is not just about the size of the guns. It is a question of aiming quickly and well. To do this, the "fire control" is developed, which some will go so far as to present as a science. (Examples will be taken from the battle of Jutland).

 

The fire control is entrusted to an officer. To ensure the best visibility, he was installed high up, sometimes in the mast. An armored hune should allow him to observe, at a distance of several tens of kilometers, in spite of the smoke of the guns, the curtains of smoke, the sheaves of fire, targets moving at speeds of 40 to 50 km/h. And these targets are usually only visible through their own mast. At the level of the turrets, the adversary is then completely out of sight.

 

The fire control officer uses a rangefinder or rangefinders to determine distances. The British used coincidence rangefinders, the Germans stereoscopic rangefinders. It seems that the latter were more accurate. In addition to the officer, there are several sailors in the gun emplacement, each performing a specific task. For example, to continuously adjust a rangefinder, or to receive orders from the commander.

 

The gunnery officer was forced to concentrate so hard that he was unaware of what was going on around him. For example, it took a British gunner several hours to realize that two of the six ships in his division had sunk.

 

The indications of the firing officer were transmitted to the calculation station, a sheltered area at the bottom of the ship. There, the two elements essential to the turrets were calculated, the elevation (pointing at the height of the guns) and the bearing (pointing in the direction of the guns). To determine these parameters, the distance to the target, its course, its relative speed, but also the wind, the hygrometry, the duration of the projectile's journey, the latitude (for the calculation of the Coriolis force), and even the quality of the powder are taken into account.

 

Remember that there are no computers and the calculations are done by hand.

 

The result of the calculations is transmitted to the turrets and sent back to the firing officer for observation of the results. There is no remote control. In the turrets, the elevation and bearing calculated by the central calculation station are displayed and their indications are repeated by the sailors by operating the adjustment wheels. Remember that, in their closed turret, the sailors do not know what they are shooting at.

 

Transmission errors are inevitable with such a procedure. The gunnery officer of the Derfflinger will tell us that his firing corrections transmitted to the computer station seemed to have no effect. He multiplied by two the transmitted data and had then the satisfaction to see the sheaves framing his goal.

 

The firing is triggered by the firing officer. It is common for the guns to fire successively and not together, on the one hand to spare the ship's structure, and on the other hand to appreciate more easily the result of the firing.


There are two types of firing: the "adjustment firing" and the "efficiency firing". The first makes it possible to determine the correct firing parameters. To do this, the firing officer monitors the arrival of the shells he has just launched. To help him, clocks are set to the expected flight time. They then rang, as much to awaken the attention of the sailors as to allow them to distinguish the sheaves of fire from the other ships.

 

Depending on the results observed, the firing officer will make "jumps" in bearing and distance. When the sheaves surround the target, he will trigger the "efficiency shot", where all the guns will fire as quickly as possible. He can also choose the type of shell. The ships of the line of the time carried "explosive shells", which exploded on contact, and "rupture shells", which had to penetrate the armour before exploding. The efficiency of the latter decreases with the range. It was three such shells, sent by SMS Von der Tann, that sank the HMS Indefatigable.

 

The number of hits on target is low: 3%."

 

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artillerie_navale

 

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9 hours ago, Iceman 29 said:

 

Remember that there are no computers and the calculations are done by hand.

The Royal Navy had been using computers for fire control since 1902. By Jutland the initial Dumaresq computer had been incorporated into the Dreyer Fire Control Table.

Most of the input parameter readings were taken manually and input into the fire control table by hand, but the gunnery solution was calculated automatically by the computer.

http://dreadnoughtproject.org/tfs/index.php/Dreyer_Fire_Control_Table

https://www.jutland1916.com/tactics-and-technologies-4/range-finding-and-course-plotting-2/

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I spent a lot of time searching for documents on internet and books.

 

The progress of the day, minimal at the sight, but I modified a lot of things that were not good before continuing further in the drawing, like shortening the front stack that was a bit long, not easy at this level of advancement of the drawing because of the overlapping of the different decks around...

 

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I think I found the rare pearl for the Triplex rangefinder, there are plenty of details on the blockhouse as well, including another American Pelorus style compass that I already designed for the Nokomis tug.

 

It would be 3 FT24 tubes of 15 feet long ( there is an error in the book which speaks of FT23, it does not exist in 15).

 

I found the picture on Reddit, it's the only place where this picture is posted on the net, so I don't have the origin of the picture.

 

Too bad the main compass hides the mount. And that the sun visor covers are in place. For the foot, the plan will help me.

 

The rangefinder tubes were painted white to avoid any deformation with the heat of the sun which can affect the accuracy. On a picture below, we see a canvas sunshade.

 

 

 

Comments:

 

"Barr and Stroud triple rangefinder used by French ships during WWI. One rangefinder measured distance to target, the second measured distance to shell bursts to obtain a "range error", and the third was used to correct the first two by alternating measurements." 

 

Italy:

"In 1917, the RM purchased seven FT25 "Triplex" rangefinders from Barr & Stroud, which were used to equip the five surviving dreadnought battleships (the Leonardo da Vinci having already been sunk), replacing the original forward rangefinder turret they had (which was equipped with a 9-foot Barr & Stroud rangefinder or a 3-meter Zeiss); the aft turret, with the corresponding rangefinder, was retained.

 

The inability to acquire modern rangefinders in a timely manner (because, with the increasing distance to Germany, Zeisses were no longer available, and British ones could only be acquired after RN requests were fulfilled) highlighted the inability of Italian industry not only to provide competitive optical equipment for its capital ships, but also the absence of any company or factory, public or private, capable of building even small rangefinders. Attempts to build them during the war had to start from scratch, and what was built was virtually unusable."

 

 

 

A page on Dreadnoughtproject of Barr & Stroud rangefinder models with quite a few plans that may help:

 

http://dreadnoughtproject.org/tfs/index.php/Barr_and_Stroud_Rangefinders

 

Photo of the Courbet class probably.

 

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Other pictures taken from the 2 books I own:

 

Note the main compass on the blockhouse, the binocular row on the Bretagne and the 47mm gun mount on the turret.

 

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FT24 of 9 or 15 feet ( 15 feet for what concerns us, that is to say tubes of 4,57 mt long : 

 

"Fire control:

 

The first two ships of the class, Courbet and Jean Bart were equipped with two Barr & Stroud 9-foot (2.74 m) FQ2 rangefinders at the end. These were located side by side, as in the Danton class (equipped with the earlier 2-meter model) on swivel mounts atop the turret, protected by individual special steel screens. 

However, the inadequacy of these rangefinders had already been recognized, and a secret directive from the Minister dated 25 April 1914 proposed their replacement by three Barr & Stroud 15-foot (4.57 m) FT23 FT24 'triplex' mountings. The new...."

 

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Note that the serachlight installed would probably be from the well known brand Sperry.

 

Sperry 36-inch Navy Searchlight

 

Pima Air and Space Museum

 

SPERRY 36-INCH 90 cm NAVY SEARCHLIGHT SERIAL NUMBER 1529

 

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The largest of the three standard searchlight sizes used on US Navy ships during World War II.

 

Since the late 19th century, searchlights have been an important multipurpose tool for naval crews. They have been used to detect enemy ships, assist landing parties, aid in search and rescue, as signaling devices and to dazzle or confuse attacking enemies. Indeed, one of the first naval applications of searchlights occurred in 1882, when the Royal Navy used searchlights to dazzle Egyptian gun crews defending Alexandria.

 

During the Russo-Japanese War, World War I and World War II, searchlights were used to detect, track and engage enemy ships during night naval battles. The Japanese Navy, in particular, developed tactics and training that proved highly effective in nighttime naval engagements early in World War II.

 

As the war progressed, radar emerged as a far more effective means of locating and tracking enemy ships, with the added benefit of not revealing a ship's location. However, searchlights proved to be very versatile and were first used in the battles of Midway and the Philippine Sea, where they served as night beacons to guide crews to their carriers. Because of their varied utility, the Navy still installs searchlights on most modern ships.

 

The 36-inch searchlight shown here is a standard Navy model, using a carbon arc lamp and a parabolic mirror. Carbon arc lamps work by creating an electric arc between two carbon rods, or electrodes. This arc creates an intense, constant and very bright light that is focused and projected in a narrow beam by the rear parabolic mirror. The diameter of this beam is controlled by an iris shutter. Large searchlights, such as this 36-inch searchlight, could be controlled manually or remotely, and were primarily used for night fighting. They did not have a shutter for signaling. Signaling was provided by smaller 12 and 24 inch general purpose searchlights.

 

Technical specifications

Light: carbon arc lamp, power of 400 000 000 candles

Crossbeam: 360 degrees

Elevation: -40 to 120 degrees

 

Photos: Kelly Michals.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/rocbolt/with/52022359502/

 

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SPERRY-36-INCH-NAVY-SEARCHLIGHT-SERIAL-N

 

A searchlight, maybe a Sperry, that I had taken a picture of at the Foynes Seaplane Museum in Ireland: 

 

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A 24 inch:

 

https://www.fortgilkicker.co.uk/searchlights1.htm

 

http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/57w.htm

 

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Searchlight MarkIII, 90cm with glass door and reflector frame: Service searchlight used from 1902 for the "Defence Electric Lights".

 

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Projector Mark I Type Sautter Lemonnier, obsolete in 1902:

 

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Searchlight MarkII Sautter Lemonnier type: Obsolete by 1902

 

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Searchlight MarkII Shukert-Aveling Type: Obsolete by 1902

 

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Searchlight MarkIII: Searchlight, 90cm with glass door and reflector frame: Service searchlight used from 1902 for the "Defence Electric Lights".

 

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Operating instructions for a carbon arc projector.

 


 

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I started a quick draft of a temporary projector type inspired by several models. 

 

I did not find for the moment exactly what I wanted. 

 

Thanks to all the contributors who are very helpful.

 

I am at the beginning of the drawing. Although the details won't show. 


I will print them in transparent resin.

 

The base is obviously square, not round, from this picture.

 

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The day's progress, I worked on the central part around the turret, the rail tracks of the moving searchlights, then the rear of the 2nd deck where the boat supports are located.

 

It's quite long because you have to interpret the layers of the ship's plans at this level and not make mistakes.

 

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Exceptionally, a touch of color !

 

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I would make the green a bit stronger next time, although here it is shown after a few weeks in the water with already some concretions.

Antifouling paints tend to lighten up a lot after a few weeks in the sea water in my experience.

 

It's even surprising when you go to the dry dock to apply a new green, red or black paint. I thought to myself, "well this green that he applies is much darker than the previous one". But no, after a few weeks the color was identical. 

 

It was all the more obvious when the sailors applied antifouling patches afloat when the ship was light, mainly in the areas where the fenders rubbed. The darker patches would gradually fade into the green of the hull.

 

I also have a small sailboat that had a green antifouling from Boero, the same phenomenon occurred.  

 

Very effective long lasting antifouling without organotin toxin, with high copper salt content:

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This green looks a lot like the Schweinfurt green or Paris green, but much less toxic...! 

 

You can see on these personal photos the difference between the application of the paint coming out of the pot and after a few weeks in the sea water. You can also see clearly at the actual waterline the difference in color.

 

It would be interesting to take this into account on the models at the waterline.

 

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Schweinfurt Grun

 

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In 1805, while precipitating verdigris with an arsenic compound, the Austrian Ignaz Edler von Mitis (1771-1842) discovered "copper arsenic acid", a yellow-green pigment that was named Mitis green after him. The industrial production of the bright and lightfast arsenic pigment started around 1808 in Schweinfurt in the Wilhelm Sattler paint and ceramics factory. 

 

The place of manufacture gave the pigment the name Schweinfurter Grün. The Merseburg physician Carl von Basedow first published evidence of the toxic effect of wallpaper printed with Schweinfurt green in 1844. He showed that a certain fungus (Penicillium brevicaule) in the Schweinfurt green bound to the glue releases organic arsenic compounds which lead to poisoning by the air we breathe.

 

Schweinfurter Grün was very popular in the 19th century. An indication of this is the large number of color names. We also speak of Parisian green, varnished green, Viennese green, emerald green, parrot green, imperial green, etc.. It was used to paint walls, to print on wallpapers, to dye fabrics, for example for the emerald green ball gowns of fashion-conscious women in the 19th century or as an artist's paint. It was particularly popular in the color palette of French impressionists such as Paul Gauguin and Vincent van Gogh.

 

In Germany, Schweinfurter Grün has been banned for painting and wallpaper since 1882.


(Stefan Muntwyler / Georg Kremer, 2010)

 

Poison Green' and the death of Napoleon


Well... and what does Schweinfurter Grün have to do with the death of Napoleon Bonaparte? For a long time there was speculation as to the cause of Napoleon Bonaparte's death and whether it had anything to do with the green color of the wallpaper on St. Helena. Napoleon died there in 1821. Green was all the rage at the time. Only 19 years later - in 1840 - his body returned to France.

 

It was precisely at this time that scientists were just beginning to worry about arsenic in the bright green paint. His body was barely decomposed, raising suspicion of arsenic poisoning. However, this was challenged in 2008 by an Italian research group, which, through hair analysis, came to the conclusion that in all phases of Napoleon's life considered, as well as in the hair samples of his son and wives, there were equally high levels. of the toxic metal in the body and therefore no poisoning (at least intentional). 

 

https://www.caparol.de/gestaltung/inspiration/gruen/schweinfurter-gruen

 

The computer color palette color code I will use next time for the drawing:

 

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