USAAF Sand Color opinions and best paint choices... help

[Tokyo Raider]

Greetings friends...  its almost time for me to restart my model building season, and I am getting the itch!

 

I am eyeing several projects, all US aircraft using ANA Sand color.  I wanted to ask you all if you have found prefereances of paint brands for Sand.  I have some jars (unopened) of testors model master ANA sand.  It looks light to me, but i have not tried it.  What do you use for this interesting color, that has a pink cast to it?

 

Thanks for your opinions!

[Troy Smith]

10 minutes ago, Tokyo Raider said:

 

I am eyeing several projects, all US aircraft using ANA Sand color.

I'd really specify exactly what, when  and where, as I think it's 'it varies' answer.  

 

I have vague memories that possibly Corps on Engineers colors were used, but that may have been disproved. 

 

10 minutes ago, Tokyo Raider said:

What do you use for this interesting color, that has a pink cast to it?

IIRC, it wasn't pink when new, but a pigment faded quickly giving a pink cast as a result.

 

@Dana Bell  @Casey   would likely know more.

[Tokyo Raider]

Ok... 

 

project 1:  i have some nice mike grant decals for the B-24d strawberry bitch, and i am looking to build an old monogram pro modeller 1/48 B24d kit.

 

Project 2:  hasegawa deaths wing p40K with the fat tail.  This is overall topside sand.

 

Project 3: legal eagle B25c with sand and olive drab topside.

 

Hope this helps, and i hoped the responders can describe the fade to pink that the paint options have.  The modelmaster appears a cold tan, but thats just appearance thru the glass jar.  I have not wanted to break the seal on such priceless paint!

[Casey]

1 minute ago, Troy Smith said:

I'd really specify exactly what, when  and where, as I think it's 'it varies' answer.  

 

I have vague memories that possibly Corps on Engineers colors were used, but that may have been disproved. 

 

I wasn't pink when new, but a pigment faded quickly giving a pink cast as a result.

 

@Dana Bell  @Casey   would likely know more.

I have samples of this color, and it is quite interesting one. It does look like darkened skin color.

 

My spectrophotometer says it is this one:

 

 

This paint perception is very shifting depending on the surrounding light, the reading above is from D65 Daylight illuminant

 

But here is the same paint sample comparison as seen with:

 

Daylight (left) - as before

Tunsgten light - traditional light bulb (middle)

Fluorescent light (right)

 

So yes, this paint is definitely pinkish... under certain conditions.

 

My private approach of getting this paint is using pigments similar to a fleshtone. If you want some recipes, ask me in PM, I am known to go into the rabbit holes full of paints and colors probably way too much

[Tokyo Raider]

I like the traditional light bulb appearance.  That looks close to my memory of the real strawberry bitch.  Its a few hundred miles south of me in dayton ohio.  The model master i have is much lighter.

 

Does any other company make ANA sand in a jar?  I dont want to mix myself, i want my models to look the same as far as a color goes.  Thanks

Edited August 3, 2022 by Tokyo Raider

[Troy Smith]

29 minutes ago, Tokyo Raider said:

Project 3: legal eagle B25c with sand and olive drab topside.

see page 5 and on here

https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Camouflage-Markings/North-American-B-25-Mitchell

seems the sand B-25's later got a disruptive coat of OD.

31 minutes ago, Tokyo Raider said:

project 1:  i have some nice mike grant decals for the B-24d strawberry bitch, and i am looking to build an old monogram pro modeller 1/48 B24d kit.

see page 3 https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Camouflage-Markings/Consolidated-B-24-Liberator

 

Old but still mostly good,   

1 minute ago, Tokyo Raider said:

I dont want to mix myself, i want my models to look the same as far as a color goes. 

I'd suggest a B-25 old enough to get to Italy would have a faded sand,   so likley some variation.   

What's wrong with mixing paint, all you need to make sure of is you have enough to finish a model.

 

37 minutes ago, Tokyo Raider said:

Project 2:  hasegawa deaths wing p40K with the fat tail.  This is overall topside sand.

 

Note serial on OD strip.

 

HTH

[Space Ranger]

44 minutes ago, Tokyo Raider said:

Does any other company make ANA sand in a jar?

See here:

https://www.cybermodeler.com/color/ana_table.shtml

[Spitfires Forever]

1 hour ago, Tokyo Raider said:

Ok... 

 

project 1:  i have some nice mike grant decals for the B-24d strawberry bitch, and i am looking to build an old monogram pro modeller 1/48 B24d kit.

 

Project 2:  hasegawa deaths wing p40K with the fat tail.  This is overall topside sand.

 

Project 3: legal eagle B25c with sand and olive drab topside.

 

Hope this helps, and i hoped the responders can describe the fade to pink that the paint options have.  The modelmaster appears a cold tan, but thats just appearance thru the glass jar.  I have not wanted to break the seal on such priceless paint!

If it helps I was able to see a panel off of a B-24D taken from a wreck in North Africa displayed at a museum. Not sure which part of the aircraft it was taken from but the part did not seem to faded so I compared it to several enamels and the Model Master dark tan was an incredibly close match. The Humbrol dark tan was a very close second in appearance. As to acrylics I cannot comment because I am a dedicated enamel user of many years and just find it easier to use all the way around. I went with the dark tan on my P-40K and with a little bit of slightly faded splotching here and there along with a panel wash the plane looks pretty authentic but in the end it all depends on how picky you are about authenticity. For me as close as possible without getting all OCD about it works but I can't seem to get over small errors that drive me crazy about where I might of gone wrong with my kits. It's advanced modellers disease, comes with the territory.

Cheers

[stevehnz]

5 hours ago, Spitfires Forever said:

Humbrol dark tan

Was this Hu 118 or one of their other sandy/tanny shades?

One for @Tokyo Raider, are we talking ANA 616 Sand or ANA628 Sierra Tan which is what @Casey's swatches appear to be more like to my eyes?

Thanks.

Steve.

[Casey]

6 minutes ago, stevehnz said:

Was this Hu 118 or one of their other sandy/tanny shades?

Thanks.

Steve.

 

From left:

ANA 616 Sand

Humbrol 118 US Tan

Humbrol 249 Sandgelb

 

[Casey]

17 minutes ago, stevehnz said:

ANA 616 Sand or ANA628 Sierra Tan

I was talking of ANA 616 and my 'large' swatches are the same color just under different light conditions.

[stevehnz]

Thanks @Casey, I appreciate the clarification, so often these discussions get bogged down through vague naming of shades. Recently I mentioned how it is frustrating so many useful Humbrol shades are poorly named, witness their name for Hu 118, US tan. I think it is 'sposed to be used where FS30219 is used, so which of theirs will I use for ANA616 or 628 (rhetorical question). It is no wonder colour threads get so "involved" (for want of a different term)  

Steve.

[Tokyo Raider]

15 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

see page 5 and on here

https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Camouflage-Markings/North-American-B-25-Mitchell

seems the sand B-25's later got a disruptive coat of OD.

see page 3 https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Camouflage-Markings/Consolidated-B-24-Liberator

 

Old but still mostly good,   

I'd suggest a B-25 old enough to get to Italy would have a faded sand,   so likley some variation.   

What's wrong with mixing paint, all you need to make sure of is you have enough to finish a model.

 

 

Note serial on OD strip.

 

HTH

Thanks for the great documentation!

[Tokyo Raider]

9 hours ago, stevehnz said:

Was this Hu 118 or one of their other sandy/tanny shades?

One for @Tokyo Raider, are we talking ANA 616 Sand or ANA628 Sierra Tan which is what @Casey's swatches appear to be more like to my eyes?

Thanks.

Steve.

Hi...  I am after ANA616 SAND.  I have read some guys adding a few drops of red to the modelmaster until it looks pink faded.  I may do that.

 

I use mr color now, so have a hasegawa p40k kit that calls out mr color c44 for the ANA616.  I will have to compare that color too...

Edited August 4, 2022 by Tokyo Raider

[Jackson Duvalier]

I mixed Tamiya colours to model the P-40K in that Life Magazine photo Troy shared above.  Desert Yellow was my starting point, lightened and broken up with Deck Tan (my go-to for "scale effect" colour de-saturation), and the pinkish aspect was evoked with a judicious addition of pure Red-- enough Deck Tan pinked it out nicely.

A quick trawl of the Internet yielded no "authoritative" mixing formula to match ANA 616 using Tamiya paints, and no attempt was made at matching an official colour chip (which I haven't access to in any case).  No records were kept, nor were spectrometers consulted.  I used my eye and my artistic judgment and lots of light layers to get something that looks right enough under normal viewing conditions here in my atelier.*  Looks pretty good on the model if I do say so myself.  The colour is nowhere near as deep or intense as the swatches Casey posted... because it's not actually a real P-40K aeroplane wearing fresh, in-spec paint, under full sunlight.  It's a 1/72 representation of a weathered P-40K.  Which, by the way, was painted in Olive Drab before the Sand was applied, which adds yet another fractal layer to the question.

 

Many (most?) modellers want pat, just-so answers to colour questions-- myself sometimes included-- but the subject is simply too slippery for definitive answers; IMHO modelling excellence is not achieved in paint-by-numbers fashion.  Others less inclined to dithering might crack the Model Master bottle, confident in the presumption the good folks at Testors got it right, and paint their kit up and be happy, and that's fine too.

 

I have benefitted greatly by all the research more dedicated people have performed and shared.  Their work has established certain accuracy parameters in that some pigment mixes are simply out of the question.  But accuracy parameters are merely a starting point for getting to a painted model.

 

 

*  My slovenly work habits remind me sometimes of Albert Pinkham Ryder, who "used his materials liberally and with little regard for sound technical procedures. His paintings, which he often worked on for ten years or more, were built up of layers of paint, resin, and varnish applied on top of each other. He would use a wet-on-wet technique,[9] and would often paint into wet varnish, or apply a layer of fast-drying paint over a layer of slow-drying paint."  These painting were visibly deteriorating within his own lifetime.  Of course, he didn't have Tamiya acrylic lacquers to work with, and I doubt there will be a market for my models a hundred years hence.

Edited August 5, 2022 by Jackson Duvalier

[Giorgio N]

I know it's historical nitpicking, but shouldn't we look for Sand 49 from Bulletin No.41-A rather than ANA 616 ? Sand 49 was introduced in mid 1942 so all aircraft wearing this colour in Northern Africa would have used this. No ANA colour card was sent out before September 1943 and by then there was no use for this colour anymore in the MTO as the war was now over Italy.

Of course Sand 49 was then incorporated in ANA Bulletin 157 as 616, so the two colours are the same. Reason why I said from the start that this is historical nitpicking.. 😀

 

[stevehnz]

Thinking out loud a bit, afaik, Humbrol 250 named as Desert Sand, is likely to have been formulated as a colour to use for Desert Storm Jaguars & Buccaneers.  It could, imho, do duty as Humbrol's equivalent to @Giorgio N's Sand49/ANA616, it certainly has a pinkish tone to it. 

Steve.