Harrier GR.3 Falklands LGB Attack Profile

[goon]

I'm building a  GR.3 which I want to show dropping a Paveway LGB. I've read in Air War South Atlantic that the Harriers 'tossed' the bombs in to the laser designation, rather than the drop from high altitude we became used to seeing during the first Gulf War and after. One of the pilots is quoted as saying the bomb climbed to 3000 feet, so I'm assuming that it was a low altitude release, but does anyone know what sort of pitch angle it was? I'm guessing about 45 degrees but I think it could have been steeper for a steeper descent in to the laser 'basket'.

 

Also, would the control surfaces that pop out of the rear fins deploy at this point, like a straight and level drop, or would there be a delay?

 

Thanks for any help,

Gareth

[bootneck]

Hi Gareth

 

I watched one of these attacks.  I cannot recall at the moment whether I was on Mt Kent or Mt Harriet at the time;  which means I can't be certain whether the target was Mt Harriet or Mt Tumbledown.  We were advised of the strike in advance, I was able to watch the Harrier come in very low, below us and to our right, just as it came abreast of us is suddenly climbed in a perfect loop.  When it reached almost halfway up the circle of the loop, the pilot lobbed the bomb which continued skywards for a while before arching down towards the opposite mount.   Trying to watch two things at the same time: follow the bomb or the Harrier was difficult so I watched the bomb.  It landed half way up the mount and exploded amongst the Argies who were out in the open.  When the Harrier was about 2/3 up the loop, and almost upside down, it flipped over and started firing off chaff flare before flying off to our right and back out to sea.

 

Cheers,

Mike

[wellsprop]

I've just read Sharkey Ward's Falklands book, (the following is applicable to Sea Harrier with dumb bombs, not necessarily LGBs), the bombing computer was I believe integrated with navhars and a profile would be flown from low altitude. The HUD would indicate when to release the bomb to "loft" it onto target.

 

I have no idea how it'd work for a Gr3 with laser designator, as I assume the LGB would need to "see" a laser. 

 

Superb dit @bootneck  were you able to identify it as a SHAR or Gr3 (somehow I can imagine that wasn't your top priority at the time however) 

 

[bootneck]

Hi Ben,  defo a GR.3  it was less than 100 feet to my right and about 20 feet below.  It was reallly skimming the contour lines of the mount we were on as it came into view.

 

I used to be on a Forward Air Control (FAC) team and we had manportable Laser Target Markers (LTMs) which we mounted onto surveyors type of tripod.  This was in the mid-1970's and the manual said the LTM only had a lit area of 7deg either side of the aiming point.  My understanding, not very much as I never saw it from a pilots p.o.v. was that we would only illuminate the target in the final 30 seconds or so of the attack (to avoid detection beforehand).  I think the LGB had a forward looking senser that searched for the laser mark on the target and aimed for that.  I am sure other more knowledgeable members will elaborate on that.

 

We also had a stunning pair of digital binoculars, the ones seen on Star Wars with all the ranges showing in a HUD in the eyepieces.  Awesome!

 

cheers,
Mike

[exdraken]

46 minutes ago, goon said:

I've read in Air War South Atlantic that the Harriers 'tossed' the bombs in to the laser designation, rather than the drop from high altitude we became used to seeing during the first Gulf War and after.

Weren't they tossed in Lybia as well by F-111 in 1986? ( buy self designated)

[bootneck]

I've just remembered where we were, having looked at a map.  Our Commando unit was on Mt Challenger,  preparing to move out to attack Mt Harriet.    I also realise that the 7 deg arc must have been the search range of the LGB, as the LTM was a pinpoint laser light.

 

HTH,

Mike

[goon]

That's a very informative reply Mike, thank you. I'm thinking it would have been at a pretty high pitch angle for release.

 

Thanks again,

Gareth

[Selwyn]

13 hours ago, bootneck said:

I've just remembered where we were, having looked at a map.  Our Commando unit was on Mt Challenger,  preparing to move out to attack Mt Harriet.    I also realise that the 7 deg arc must have been the search range of the LGB, as the LTM was a pinpoint laser light.

 

HTH,

Mike

The LGB used in the Falklands did not use the bomb guidance system, they were dropped as dumb free fall  bombs as they did not have the correct pulsed target designators with troops on the ground.  What they were using as you describe was the laser target marker (LTM) which indicated the target position to the aircraft marked target seeker (located in the dolphin nose of the GR3 harrier). This marked the target you designated on the aircraft HUD and the pilot attacked this point. using the loft manoever as you saw. The bomb did not "guide" it was aimed using the aircraft weapon system. To answer another question in the thread The LGB fins are always activated and deploy on release from the aircraft.

 

Selwyn

[exdraken]

2 hours ago, Selwyn said:

The LGB used in the Falklands did not use the bomb guidance system, they were dropped as dumb free fall  bombs

I have heard before that the laser guidance was tried but did not work. But wouldn't what you describe be a waste of LGB parts?

As I read it, GP bombs would have lead to the same...? No?

[Selwyn]

8 minutes ago, exdraken said:

I have heard before that the laser guidance was tired but did not work. But wouldn't what you describe be a waste of LGB parts?

As I read it, GP bombs would have lead to the same...? No?

This was a new weapon at the time, The bomb guidance's were actually air dropped to the task force IIRC. they didn't know a lot about how they worked, so in the absence of the proper designators They tried using LTM the troops had to see if it could be used to guide the bomb. They found out it couldn't, as Paveway uses a pulse laser system. So the bombs were dropped as free fall weapons as described. 

I think to correct designators arrived the day of the surrender.

 

Selwyn

[goon]

Hi Selwyn,

Thanks for the confirmation of the fins popping put on release. 👍

 

I'm a little confused that you say all LGB drops were unguided, as Squires is quoted in Air War South Atlantic describing his attack, and I have found this article that says that four drops were made with laser designation.

 

Cheers,

Gareth

[goon]

Jerry Pook also describes the process in RAF Harrier Ground Attack Falklands. According to him the attack was a low level 'toss' delivery in coordination with a Forward Air Controller using a laser designator.

 

Gareth

[Phone Phixer]

The Paveway II system did not have an active laser seeker sensor. It was purely passive, it required dropping into the reflected laser energy to then guide, not seek it out itself.

The laser from the designator equipment, either ground mounted or from a Pavespike pod, would be reflected out in a cone shape. The LGB needed to be dropped into the cone, either from altitude or tossed into it. Once located, the guidance unit would correct the bombs flight when it reached the extremities of the cone. These changes obviously got more frequent as the LGB got closer to the target and the cone got narrower.

 

Back in the 80's there was a cracking video on 237 (Bucc) OCU of a Paveway II LGB in flight, one of the nav's filmed through a Pavespike pod. 20 Sqn Tornado's had come to Lossie on detachment to drop LGB's on Garvie island. Several live Paveway II's were dropped, designated from the Buccaneers. Then they dropped some HES PW II's, designated by SBS in dingies. HES was a safety consideration due to the proximity of the SBS bobbing about in the sea. One of the OCU's Buccs flew along with one of these drops and the nav zoomed right on to the bomb and filmed it. Don't think the bombs flight is a smooth arc, it was zig zagging all the way down the cone. The control fins were constantly moving.

 

Rob.

[Selwyn]

On 7/31/2022 at 6:06 PM, goon said:

Hi Selwyn,

Thanks for the confirmation of the fins popping put on release. 👍

 

I'm a little confused that you say all LGB drops were unguided, as Squires is quoted in Air War South Atlantic describing his attack, and I have found this article that says that four drops were made with laser designation.

 

Cheers,

Gareth

first i have heard of this, if so it must of happened at the very end of hostilities.

 

Selwyn

[Selwyn]

53 minutes ago, Phone Phixer said:

The Paveway II system did not have an active laser seeker sensor. It was purely passive, it required dropping into the reflected laser energy to then guide, not seek it out itself.

The laser from the designator equipment, either ground mounted or from a Pavespike pod, would be reflected out in a cone shape. The LGB needed to be dropped into the cone, either from altitude or tossed into it. Once located, the guidance unit would correct the bombs flight when it reached the extremities of the cone. These changes obviously got more frequent as the LGB got closer to the target and the cone got narrower.

 

Back in the 80's there was a cracking video on 237 (Bucc) OCU of a Paveway II LGB in flight, one of the nav's filmed through a Pavespike pod. 20 Sqn Tornado's had come to Lossie on detachment to drop LGB's on Garvie island. Several live Paveway II's were dropped, designated from the Buccaneers. Then they dropped some HES PW II's, designated by SBS in dingies. HES was a safety consideration due to the proximity of the SBS bobbing about in the sea. One of the OCU's Buccs flew along with one of these drops and the nav zoomed right on to the bomb and filmed it. Don't think the bombs flight is a smooth arc, it was zig zagging all the way down the cone. The control fins were constantly moving.

 

Rob.

Paveway II canard fins work on the "bang bang" principle. when required the fins  do not slightly adjust proportionately  to steer the bomb, every control input causes the fins to go from zero to full up or down  as required deflection and then back to zero, basically "banging "against the stops, hence the zig zag flightpath.

 

Selwyn

[goon]

14 minutes ago, Selwyn said:

first i have heard of this, if so it must of happened at the very end of hostilities.

 

Selwyn

It was very late on - 13th June. LGB missions on the 14th were recalled as the white flag was seen over Stanley.