German wreck identification please?

[Rob de Bie]

Who can identify the aircraft type of this wreck? Thanks in advance!

 

Rob

[Troy Smith]

10 minutes ago, Rob de Bie said:

Who can identify the aircraft type of this wreck?

Me 410? 

similar fin shape, position of horizontal stabiliser,  and burnt out wing where engine is 

[Heather Kay]

I thought Me210/410, too, but it could also be a Henschel Hs126.

[Crimea River]

Me210/410 was my first thought as well. Shame the WNr. can't be read. 

[IanC]

Agreed.  It's definitely a twin - note port engine behind GI - so almost certainly a Me 410. There were quite a few about on captured airfields. Colour fits too.

[Rob de Bie]

Thank you all so far! Fin tip shape, leading and trailing edge sweep, mass balance position, swastika position, horizontal tail positon, all agree with Me 210 and 410 photos. But the aspect ratio looks smaller, i.e. the tail looks too low to me eye, by 30% or so. But I guess there are no alternatives.

 

Is there a way to distinguish a 210 from a 410 by the tail only?

 

Rob

[Heather Kay]

Did I say Hs126? I meant Hs129. Twin engines, similar tail fin shape. The smaller fin seems to point that way, where the Me410 was quite large.

[Troy Smith]

19 minutes ago, Rob de Bie said:

But the aspect ratio looks smaller, i.e. the tail looks too low to me eye, by 30% or so. But I guess there are no alternatives.

I think the tail section is further back than it may appear,  note the burned out engine look like a DB603, and the prorp blade is big.

 

The only Hs129's with a mottled tail I have seen are in the desert. 

This  by the look of it an American photo.  likely Germany at end of war.   

 

I doubt if there were any me 210 around by this date.

[Flintstone]

Although the vertical tail looks like a 410 the horizontal tailplane appears square edged. The 410 horizontal plan looks rounded. 

I looked at the Ta154, but the fin is square, but could it be a JU88?

[Flintstone]

Should have said 410 horizontal tail plane looks rounded on photos.

[Werdna]

Ju88 tail (assuming it's pre-'G') has a more pronounced curve in its rudder profile, so I don't think it's an 88.  Horizontal stabs on the Hs129 are positioned a lot lower than those in the pic.  For what it's worth, I agree with those that say Me410.

[Flintstone]

That is true, but the tail is at a strange angle?

[Werdna]

21 minutes ago, Flintstone said:

That is true, but the tail is at a strange angle?

 

Agreed, but I still think an 88 rudder would be more obvious than that.

[Flintstone]

I agree the curve of the rudder is not clearly shown to be a JU88.

 

I have seen photos of rounded horizontal tail planes on the 410, but these are more square. Was this seen on any 410 variants? Of course it might just be a trick of the angle of the tail that gives the impression they are squared off?

[JWM]

Me 210  - please note even the same position (non typical) of writing the serial 

http://www.samolotypolskie.pl/uploads/Products/product_1843/preview_messerschmitt-me-210_src_1.jpg

Regards

J-W

 

[gingerbob]

2 hours ago, Heather Kay said:

Did I say Hs126? I meant Hs129.

 

Ha ha, I thought that was a rather odd "either or"!

[Rob de Bie]

2 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

I think the tail section is further back than it may appear,  note the burned out engine look like a DB603, and the prorp blade is big.

The only Hs129's with a mottled tail I have seen are in the desert. 

This  by the look of it an American photo.  likely Germany at end of war.   

I doubt if there were any me 210 around by this date.

 

I hadn't spotted the engine or prop before, thanks! I made an extra version of the photo to point it out, and I can add more if someone sees a recognisable part. What's that disc between the prop and the engine crankcase?

 

My compliments to Flintstone for spotting the 'square' horizontal tail tip. I was completely focussed on the vertical tail plane that looked too short.

 

Rob

 

[Rob de Bie]

Maybe this is the 'disc' - an oil tank between the prop and engine block.

 

 

I found it in this thread:

Rob

[Werdna]

25 minutes ago, Rob de Bie said:

Maybe this is the 'disc' - an oil tank between the prop and engine block.

 

Rob, I could be wrong, but I think the 'disc' in the pic is more likely to be the back-plate of the spinner.  The 'tank' in question, I think, is the coolant tank, which may possibly have melted anyway, given the heat that the fire appears to have generated...

[Mycapt65]

I think this is the remnants of a fuselage side blister gun. 

 

[Werdna]

9 hours ago, Mycapt65 said:

I think this is the remnants of a fuselage side blister gun. 

 

The 410's gun pods were a lot further forward than that - closer to the wing trailing edge, as opposed to the tailplane.  That's not to say it isn't a 410 though..

[Duncan B]

The first thing that struck me was the squared off tailplane which ruled out the Me410 to me initially however the fin does look very similar with the balance horn in the correct position and everything else looks about right so I'd go with a Me410 and a damaged tip to the tailplane (plus I can't think of anything else German or Axis in general that fits).

 

Duncan B

[Mycapt65]

On 7/30/2022 at 5:45 AM, Werdna said:

 

The 410's gun pods were a lot further forward than that - closer to the wing trailing edge, as opposed to the tailplane.  That's not to say it isn't a 410 though..

I believe the fuselage is broken into separate sections and the tail section is actually behind the mid section with the gun pod.

[G.R.Morrison]

It was a Me 410A-1, Werknummer in the 4202xx range (Mtt-built).

Peter Kaššák put together a recent photo monograph on Me 410 Werknummer series and variations (sometimes white and black numerals were used in the same series).

 

The tips of the horizontal stabilizer also appear 'squared-off' in a photo of another burnt 1945 example, and earlier, the Me 210 WNr.0051 "2N+FT" wrecked 25.Nov. 1942 (hit by enemy fire, crash-landing, tail broken off) in Tunisia also appears to have 'squared-off' horizontal stabilizers -- perhaps the tips were fragile?

 

GRM

[Rob de Bie]

GRM, thanks for you research!

 

I think the conclusion of all of the above its that it's an Me 410. I will now disclose the remaining information that I have, that I did not post earlier to avoid influencing the identification. The photo was most likely made at Brandis, and here's a report on the aircraft that were found there. It lists five 410s.

 

 

Just maybe I'll be able to get a better scan of the photo, and maybe that will reveal the WNr.

 

Thanks you all for the help!

 

Rob