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israeli Phantoms


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22 minutes ago, Duncan B said:

I think the point being made is that the F-4G didn't have the TISEO because they were originally hard wing F-4Es therefore did not get the optics when the wing was modified (while they were still E's).

Considering the miles and miles of cabling, wiring etc. which were employed in turning an E into a G, I'm sure TISEO could have been added - if it were considered useful for the envisioned tasks. 

 

Cheers, 

 

Andre

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On 7/28/2022 at 5:35 PM, tempestfan said:

There is a difference between "flaps" and "slats". I am not an aerodynamicist, but IIRC the flaps were for low speed lift improvement (e.g. on t/o and landing), while the slats are to help high speed manoeuvers by keeping the airflow close to the upper wing surface, in particular during tight turns. The slats were a fallout of the F-15 programme and not adopted on it, but introduced first on the F and then on middle to late block E's. 1972/3 or thereabouts. Both the flaps and the slats are on the inner and outer wing section as applicable - but only slats with slats and flaps with flaps, if that makes sense. Slat wing Phantoms have three fairings close to the lower inner wing leading edge each side for the actuators, but they are usually only visible from certain angles and/or relatively close up. Here is a very clear pic of the slats, and of the stabilator slot.

 

In general the difference is that leading edge flaps help generating more lift for a given Angle of Attack while slats extend the AoA/Lift curve so that it is possible to reach higher AoA before stall occurs, Both have the effect of increasing the available lift but do it in a different way.

On the Phantom the slats were introduced to solve problems in manouvering at low speed and high weight, a situation where an aircraft with the original wing could enter a flat spin if sharp manouvers caused one wing to stall.

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5 hours ago, Hook said:

TISEO was not added to the G because it was not needed for the Weasel role, being used for long range visual ID of aircraft.

 

Cheers,

 

Andre


Hi Andre

 

Not only that, but no other E Phantom with hard wing had ‘TISEO’, even in its later years.
 

You can see a black radar warning antenna on the wing near the fuselage of these Phantoms. That is an identification feature demonstrating that you are viewing an F-4E with maneuvering slats added during overhaul. These Phantoms also feature a heavy reinforcement plate on the bottom of the wing.

 

Best wishes to you!

 

Lusitanian

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  • 2 months later...
On 7/27/2022 at 12:13 PM, CT7567 said:

In early service, Israeli F-4Es were for modeling purposes the same as their USAF contemporaries other than the unique camouflage scheme.  Initially these were unslatted (in fact I've read that the famous IDF F-4E with the *giant* sharkmouth was a test airframe for slatted wings), and ordnance loads would have been similar to USAF inventory at the time.

 

Slats were introduced more or less contemporaneously in Israeli service as the USAF adoption, with a similar mix of retrofits and new-builds.  The first fleetwide airframe change unique to Israel introduced (after the 1973 war, not sure of precise timeframe) was a fixed in-flight refueling probe, angled to starboard with external plumbing back to the dorsal boom receptacle (Spanish RF-4Cs were the only other Phantoms I'm aware of that used this configuration).

 

Circa late '90s the Israelis developed an indigenous upgrade program known as Kurnass (Sledghammer, the IDF name for the Phantom) 2000.  This was originally planned to include all-new engines but ultimately was limited to primarily electronics, new RWR antennae at various points around the airframe being the only notable difference outside the cockpit.  The later Terminator upgrade program adopted by Turkey built on this with additional improvements.

 

Over time in service the Israeli Phantoms carried a wide array of indigenous weaponry (in addition to the Rhino's already vast range of ordnance options).  Some notable armament unique to Israel include Sharfrir and Python IR AAMs (local alternatives to Sidewinder), Popeye AGMs (later adopted by USAF for use on B-52s!), and in test application Gabriel antiship missiles.

Popeye AGM sounds like a runner, I have some of them in the Academy F-15I kit I have.
What would the loadout be for that exactly?

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On 10/14/2022 at 7:28 PM, Creepy Pete said:

Two Popeye's on the inner pylons, on modified pylons, datalink pod on the right outboard pylon. Not sure about the left outboard pylon. You could put an AIM-9 on the special pylon in the front right  missile well.

Looking at the link there is little to nothing I need to do other than mount of missile a little further forward than usual?

The AIM-9 mounted to the fusalage missile well sounds good. What does that special pylon look like? Is there one that can be bought after market? 

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20 hours ago, ElectroSoldier said:

Yeah.
How about the part above it?

Not much more than a simple extender. Some sheet plastic, a few swipes with sandpaper on the leading / trailing edges and presto. 

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

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On 7/28/2022 at 11:35 AM, tempestfan said:

There is a difference between "flaps" and "slats". I am not an aerodynamicist, but IIRC the flaps were for low speed lift improvement (e.g. on t/o and landing), while the slats are to help high speed manoeuvers by keeping the airflow close to the upper wing surface, in particular during tight turns. The slats were a fallout of the F-15 programme and not adopted on it, but introduced first on the F and then on middle to late block E's. 1972/3 or thereabouts. Both the flaps and the slats are on the inner and outer wing section as applicable - but only slats with slats and flaps with flaps, if that makes sense. Slat wing Phantoms have three fairings close to the lower inner wing leading edge each side for the actuators, but they are usually only visible from certain angles and/or relatively close up. Here is a very clear pic of the slats, and of the stabilator slot.

Also, when the wings started getting the boundary layer blowing system the inner section of the flaps were no longer operative check photos of F-4Bs versus F-4Js and F-4Ns on the catapult.

The only NAVY Phantoms with slatted wings were the F-4S version.

This only applied to NAVY Phantoms.

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The first slats were fixed in design and pioneered by the Israelis.

One of the first Phantom to wear them was the Sharkmouth Phantom, notice the lack of actuator fairings as these were fixed experimental slats.

 

Slatted sharkmouthed Phantom.

 

Operation Nickel Grass

 

 

Edited by Robertone139
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On 10/18/2022 at 5:30 AM, Robertone139 said:

I believe TISEO came only on those F-4Es transferred in flight directly from USAF squadrons in Germany and Spain, and those retained (at least initially) the SEA camo pattern.

Those were all hard wing E models.

 

TISEO was only fitted to F-4E which had factory installed slats. This began with serial number 71-0237 and all subsequent aircraft. No F-4E with a 'hard wing' (serial number 71-0236 and earlier) ever had TISEO, even when they received the 'slat' wing during overhaul.  

 

All 'Nickel Grass' F-4E transferred from USAFE to Israel during the 'Yom Kippur War' already had the 'slat' wing upgrade fitted when delivered to Israel.

 

Best wishes!

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