Panther and Tiger - why the odd order?

[pigsty]

This may have been covered before, but it's not the sort of thing that shows easily up in a search.

 

Right through to the Pz Kpfw IV, WWII German tanks came out in a logical order.  You might get the odd pre-production batch or a small production run with minor variations given sub-designations, but the basics were clear: you start at Ausf A, you follow it with Ausf B, then C, and you just keep going in alphabetical order.  One small exception is the Pz Kpfw II Ausf L, but you can sort of see some logic there if it was going to be called the Luchs.

 

But the Panther and the Tiger had no logical order.  And I can't find an explanation.  Any number of references simply report that the Panther went Pz Kpfw V Ausf D, Ausf A, Ausf G, Ausf F as if it was the most natural thing in the world.  And the Tiger - or more accurately the two unrelated Tigers - were the Pz Kpfw VI Ausf E and B, and there might even have been an Ausf H in there somewhere.

 

This makes no sense to me.  Does it to anyone else?

[noelh]

Wondered myself although I  have a vague memory of reading why the D came before Panther Ausf A. But it's  long  gone now.

[Bandsaw Steve]

By the later stages of the war relentless allied bombing coupled with severe frontline attrition had caused a critical shortage of letters and numerals throughout the third reich. Factories were forced to use whatever letters were available at the time of manufacture, frequently leading to irregular and unpredictable sequences.

 

 

 

🤣

 

[Rob G]

2 hours ago, Bandsaw Steve said:

By the later stages of the war relentless allied bombing coupled with severe frontline attrition had caused a critical shortage of letters and numerals throughout the third reich. Factories were forced to use whatever letters were available at the time of manufacture, frequently leading to irregular and unpredictable sequences.

 

I'm pretty sure that Spike Milligan wrote a radio documentary about this. 

[lasermonkey]

2 hours ago, Bandsaw Steve said:

By the later stages of the war relentless allied bombing coupled with severe frontline attrition had caused a critical shortage of letters and numerals throughout the third reich. Factories were forced to use whatever letters were available at the time of manufacture, frequently leading to irregular and unpredictable sequences.

 

 

 

🤣

 

Winner of the internet for today.

[Bandsaw Steve]

Amazingly, despite being a high priority allied strategic target, due to careful concealment of factories deep in Bavarian forests, German umlaut production actually increased over the course of the war.

[Folkbox1]

On 7/24/2022 at 8:56 PM, pigsty said:

This may have been covered before, but it's not the sort of thing that shows easily up in a search.

 

Right through to the Pz Kpfw IV, WWII German tanks came out in a logical order.  You might get the odd pre-production batch or a small production run with minor variations given sub-designations, but the basics were clear: you start at Ausf A, you follow it with Ausf B, then C, and you just keep going in alphabetical order.  One small exception is the Pz Kpfw II Ausf L, but you can sort of see some logic there if it was going to be called the Luchs.

 

But the Panther and the Tiger had no logical order.  And I can't find an explanation.  Any number of references simply report that the Panther went Pz Kpfw V Ausf D, Ausf A, Ausf G, Ausf F as if it was the most natural thing in the world.  And the Tiger - or more accurately the two unrelated Tigers - were the Pz Kpfw VI Ausf E and B, and there might even have been an Ausf H in there somewhere.

 

This makes no sense to me.  Does it to anyone else?

No idea what the differences between Ausf D and A and B etc might be but two things spring to mind.  Could the various versions been designed at the same time and the D happened to be ready first (like the Tempest 5 came out before the Tempest 2 iirc).  Could it just be different manufacturers had different letters for some reason?

[pigsty]

6 hours ago, Folkbox1 said:

No idea what the differences between Ausf D and A and B etc might be but two things spring to mind.  Could the various versions been designed at the same time and the D happened to be ready first (like the Tempest 5 came out before the Tempest 2 iirc).  Could it just be different manufacturers had different letters for some reason?

I don't think so.  The Panther D was definitely an improvement over the A, based on user experience, and the Panther G an even greater improvement over the D, as it included builder experience too.  And the Panther was built in at least three factories at the same time, each standard replacing the one before it, so the letters weren't distributed among the factories.

 

Hmm.  Two decent gags in four months, and a lot of head-scratching ... it's a mystery, ennit?

[Sergas]

If i remember correctly from Walter J. Spielbergers Book about the Panther. They had different prototypes of the Panther and they were called AusF A. etc and the first production vehicles were AusF D.  Why they called the next Panther in line AusF A. and not E, maybe i have take a look in Spielbergers Book again.

Edited November 3, 2022 by Sergas

[Stuart Wilson]

I always assumed that the Panther A-C were prototype and paper versions and that the first production model was the Ausf D. The following version should have been the ausf E but it was designated A due to a typo, as the initial version of the Tiger was being re-designated at the same time. Previously the Tiger was called the Tiger H for Henschel and with the planned King Tiger becoming the Ausf B the Tiger H was to be retrospectively re-designated Tiger A. Somehow these got mixed up and we ended up with the Panther A and Tiger E. I admit the mix-up is my own conjecture but it fits the evidence.

The Panther F coming before the G is simply a case of the G being a stop-gap with some of the proposed improvements of the F being introduced before other ones were ready. A bit like the Spitfire IX coming before the VIII.

 

Stuart

[tempestfan]

On 11/2/2022 at 8:20 PM, pigsty said:

I don't think so.  The Panther D was definitely an improvement over the A, based on user experience, and the Panther G an even greater improvement over the D, as it included builder experience too.  And the Panther was built in at least three factories at the same time, each standard replacing the one before it, so the letters weren't distributed among the factories.

 

Hmm.  Two decent gags in four months, and a lot of head-scratching ... it's a mystery, ennit?

But if the D was built first and was better, then the A would rather be a retrograde step, not the D an improvement? --- I have no idea about the nomenclature and its reasoning, but I seem to recall reading the D had some simplifications (that may actually have made it better) over the A. I'd have to look at references, but the A may have been intended as the ultimate Eierlegendewollmilchsau true to German style and hence running into delays, with the D having a more practical strip-down approach, just as the preceding post suggests. The IX came before the VIII because the latter incorporated quite lot of airframe reengineering, while the IX basically was a V with a Merlin 60-series bolted on and a new cooling system.

[Kingsman]

It is indeed illogical.  The Tiger had been in development in one form or another since before WW2 whereas the Panther was a new design as a direct response to encountering the T-34 during Barbarossa in 1941-42.  Tiger was in production 4-5 months before Panther.  Sept 42 vs Jan 43.  Tiger was in action in Sept 42 but Panther not until July 43.  And it was indeed the Ausf D Panther which entered production first.  The Ausf A isn't in production until Aug 43, with the G from Mar 44.  All 3 variants were produce by MAN, MNH and D-B with Demag also producing some As.  And yes, the A was an improved D.  Go figure......... 

 

And while we're figuring, don't forget that the Tiger started at Ausf E and stayed that way despite the sort of changes that caused an Ausfuhrung change on Panther.  And then the "King" Tiger was the Tiger Ausf B.......  Still figuring.....

 

The Doyle/Chamberlain/Jentz Encyclopaedia doesn't shed any explicit light on the lack of apparent logic.  They suggest that the PzKpfw VI designation had been issued as early as the VK3001 and continued through VK6501 and VK3601 to VK4501 - Tiger.  VK3002, the Panther prototypes, were not authorised until Nov 41 and the PzKpfw number doesn't seem to have been allocated until the MAN design was chosen.

 

Maybe there was shortage of appropriate letters and numbers after all.......

[pigsty]

13 hours ago, tempestfan said:

The Panther D was definitely an improvement over the A,

Did I really write that?  After proofing it and everything?  I meant (naturally, embarrassed cough) the Panther A was an improvement over the D.

 

And while we're at it, what happened to the Sd Kfz 151 series?

[Mig Eater]

Ive seen several ideas regarding the Panther's naming...

 

One of them is that they are named after the main manufacture, with Ausf.D for Demag & Ausf.A for MAN. The Ausf.G was then the main "generic" version that everyone built. No idea about the Ausf.F 😅 Similarly the Tiger prototype designs were called Ausf.H to denote Henschel but it was later changed to Ausf.E for production.

 

Another possibility is that the Panther's Ausf.D designation comes from the different designs in in the VK.30 development program.

VK 30.01 (H) Ausf.A (prototype tank later modified into the Sturer Emil)

VK 30.01 (P) Ausf.B (prototype that later lead to the Porsche Tiger)

VK 30.01 (D) Ausf.C (Daimler-Benz's panther failed competitor)

VK 30.02 (M) Ausf.D (Man's Panther prototype)

 

Why they then went to Ausf.A & then Ausf.G after is anyones guess though.

 

Some think that they just came up with random letters in order to confuse the allies! Either way there seems to be no concrete answer why the Germans suddenly changed from alphabetical ordering to seemingly random 🤔   

 

 

[spruecutter96]

Along similar lines....

 

The SR-71 Blackbird was mis-named by President Nixon and the name kind of stuck to it, from what I've read. The US air-force originally designated it the RS-71 (Recconnaisance Strategic) , but Nixon mis-read the designation when he was talking about it publically and the mistaken name was then adopted. 

 

Truth or urban myth? I have no idea...

 

Chris.  

[Rob G]

34 minutes ago, spruecutter96 said:

Truth or urban myth? I have no idea... 

 

https://theaviationgeekclub.com/sr-71-or-rs-71-how-the-legendary-blackbird-got-her-designation/amp/

 

TL;TLTR

 

It was originally to be called RS-71, but Curtis LeMay wanted it changed, so it was. Johnson (who was president at the time) read out what his speech notes told him to (SR-71) and that's all folks. 

 

As for the Tiger/Panther thing, no one really knows, as a bit of research reveals. There's a lot of speculation, some reference to 'official' sources and of course that good ole cover-all explanation "coz Adolf said so", but... no actual data. 

 

HTH.

[pigsty]

28 minutes ago, spruecutter96 said:

Truth or urban myth?

I'd say urban myth.  Apart from anything else, the SR-71 was announced when Lyndon Johnson was president, and Barry Goldwater was his Republican opponent in the 1964 election campaign.  According to Wikipedia (possibly half a step up from urban myth) the designation was contrived by Curtis LeMay - which, given his approach to things, does at least sound plausible.

 

So, coming back to German tanks ... no-one knows, then?

[Kingsman]

15 hours ago, pigsty said:

So, coming back to German tanks ... no-one knows, then?

Correct.