Lancaster FE - Tiger force

[crobinsonh]

As I understand it there where bigger radiators fitted on Tiger Force aircraft. I believe that the Tamiya 1/48th Lancaster FE version I have in my stash has exactly the same radiator's as any normal Lancaster. Does anyone know of any drawings that I can scale to 1/48th that show the difference between the normal and FE versions?

 

 

[fishplanebeer]

This probably shows my ignorance of the subject but I've never seen any scale plans or pics that show or prove that there was any actual difference so I too would welcome some definitive evidence. I've read previous posts which refer to the enlarged radiator intakes but can only presume the difference was quite subtle as none of my many photos show a difference at all, at least not that would be noticeable in 72nd scale.

 

Regards

Colin.

 

Ps. given that the war in the Far East ended before 'Tiger Force' was ready to be deployed I wonder to what extent such a mod, assuming it exists, was actually implemented by Avro?

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Lancaster VII serials, Unfortunately the cards at https://www.lancasterbombers.net/form-78-aircraft-movement-cards/ only note engine, not tropical.

NX611 to NX648, NX661 to NX703, NX715 to NX758, NX770 to NX794, RT670 to RT699

 

I have no evidence of Lancaster I and III being produced with tropical fittings.  Lancaster VII, 10 built in April, 12 in May and 34 in June 1945 with the first tropical sets fitted June, production that month was 28 with Merlin 24 temperate, 6 with Merlin 24 tropical, the plan was all future mark VII to have Merlin 24 tropical.

 

Also the Avro York, 3 BOAC York delivered to AST Hamble had Merlin 24 tropical and as of July 1945 the planned engine fits were military York temperate Merlin 24, BOAC York tropical Merlin 24

In terms of new engine production Rolls Royce Derby produced 8 Merlin 24 Tropical in April 1945, next production was 37 in October.

[wmcgill]

7 hours ago, crobinsonh said:

As I understand it there where bigger radiators fitted on Tiger Force aircraft. I believe that the Tamiya 1/48th Lancaster FE version I have in my stash has exactly the same radiator's as any normal Lancaster. Does anyone know of any drawings that I can scale to 1/48th that show the difference between the normal and FE versions?

 

 

No 1/48 comparison drawings that I'm aware of but these images taken from the WNW website show the differences quite well.

 

http://www.wingnutwings.com/ww/productdetail?productid=3193&cat=6

 

Edited July 11, 2022 by wmcgill
insert link

[EwenS]

ISTR that the modifications to at least the B.I (FE) for Tiger Force were not done on the production line but at an MU. I have some material somewhere on this subject which I’ll try to dig out. They changes included not only engines but radio and radar fits IIRC.

[dogsbody]

Would the radiators fitted to the post-war Lancastrians be that tropical type?

 

 

 

 

Chris

[fishplanebeer]

As per the link from wmcgill the intakes have a vertical line so presumably are the tropical fit, which would make sense, but no idea what the central oblong is ahead of the radiators though.

 

Regards

Colin.

 

Ps. still a bit surprised that nobody has sought to capture this change in the form of any plans or detailed drawings which is a pity.

[Ed Russell]

4 hours ago, dogsbody said:

Would the radiators fitted to the post-war Lancastrians be that tropical type?

Looking at the vertical as distinct from angled panel line and the lack of the angle at the top of the intake I would say yes it is. There is an additional intake not shown on the WnW pictures - associated with passenger carriage? I doubt they had airconditioning! Oil cooler relocated from side?

[fishplanebeer]

Thinking about it the carb intakes are no longer there so I'm assuming the oblong has something to do with this which would make this set up definitely post-war,

 

Regards

Colin.

[Finn]

Here is a Tiger Force Lancaster:

 

 

Jari

[SafetyDad]

13 hours ago, dogsbody said:

Would the radiators fitted to the post-war Lancastrians be that tropical type?

 

 

 

 

Chris

 

I'm pretty sure that this particular aircraft has been discussed here on BM before and that the conclusion was that these radiators were a one-off and unique to this airframe. @Max Headroom and @woody37 might have more on this

 

SD

 

[Max Headroom]

@SafetyDad that’s the only photo I’ve ever seen of that arrangement and can only assume it was a one-off. Quite why someone went to the time and bother of doing this in the first place is a bit of a mystery.

 

Trevor

 

Edit - there were definitely two styles. BoBF Lanc is a I(FE) with enlarged radiator fronts and the CWH one is an X with ‘normal’ style. Best thing to do is to find them both together and compare. Quick Googling for ‘two Lancasters’ threw up this….

 

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-lancaster-bombers-for-the-first-time-since-the-1950s-two-avro-lancasters-72631266.html

 

Trevor

 

Edit 2

 

Here are the York and BoB Lancaster at Duxford last year. Both have the deeper style radiator front

 

 

 

If you look at the bottom line it seems flatter than the standard type

Here are some from a similar angle on the Canadian one

 

http://www.warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=53316

 

Notice how the bottom line seems to curve up.

 

HTH

 

Trevor  

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Given a number of Lancastrians were used on things like the Kangaroo route to Australia you would usually expect them to be fitted with tropical radiators but I do not have any documents stating some were built as tropical versions or how many were later so fitted.

[Britman]

On this subject of far east Lancaster's I have never seen a model Lancaster with the saddle tank that I believe would have been used.

 

Keith

 

 

 

[dogsbody]

A couple of photos I am posting for @Geoffrey Sinclair:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chris, for Geoffrey

[EwenS]

4 hours ago, Britman said:

On this subject of far east Lancaster's I have never seen a model Lancaster with the saddle tank that I believe would have been used.

 

Keith

 

 

 

 

Everything to do with Tiger Force constantly changed from the initial offer in Sept 1944 until its disbandment in Oct 1945.

 

At the Octagon Conference in Sept 1944 the British Chiefs of Staff offered a heavy bomber force to the Americans. This was to be based on the Chinese coast or on Formosa. That put the Lancasters well beyond bombing range of Japan. So the offer was for 40 squadrons, 20 of Lancaster bombers and 20 of Lancaster tankers. By Oct 1944 the plan had been refined and was then to include 18 Lancaster tanker squadrons.

 

As US strategy then set out to bypass assaulting Formosa (Taiwan) and the Chinese coast and going direct to Okinawa, an alternative had to be found. March 1945 the Cagayan Valley on the northern part of the island of Luzon in the Philippines was offered. Then in April Miyako Jima between Formosa and Okinawa, until the US decided not to assault that island. Finally Okinawa itself was decided on. By that point aerial refuelling became unnecesary due to the reduced range and the plans for aerial refuelling were dropped.

 

The originally planned tanker fit was for 2x600 gal tanks in the bomb bay plus a hose drum, line winch and operator station. Work on that began in early 1944. Fuel transfers were achieved in Dec.

 

The saddle tank arrangement was a later scheme which was to be applied to the Lancaster & Lincoln, principally the latter, but was cancelled in May 1945 when the revised basing plan meant that range ceased to be an issue. Subsequently it was trialled on 2 Lancasters from May/June 1945.

 

There was an excellent article in the RAF Historical Society Journal Number 44 published back in 2009, titled "Tiger Force and Flight Refuelling" by Brian Gardner which is available as a .pdf download. The article concludes with a discussion on the fit of the Lancasters, which were to be brought up to the required radio/radar standard at St Athan before returning to Waddington and / or East Kirby for other work by civilain working parties.

 

https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/research/default/raf-historical-society-journals/

 

Paul Lucas had an article on Tiger Force markings in the Dec 2018 edition of Scale Aircraft Modelling.

[crobinsonh]

Thanks to everyone for your time and informative responses.

[isaneng]

Bloody hell, I fly PA474, and you guys are such a mine of information it's unbelievable. 

Don't laugh, but when I chat to people at air shows, and tell them where I learnt stuff, on a modelling site, they often think I'm pulling their leg! Chap on here only a few months ago taught me about bench seats at the nav station, now I learn about saddle tanks! Any more hints and tips gladly taken!