A Taranto Swordfish - 815 NAS “4A” ***** FINISHED *****

[mark.au]

Apologies for the somewhat stream-of-consciousness posting this morning…

 

In searching for what the S1E scheme was (because I’m learning to not rely on my assumptions, painfully slowly it must be said) I found this thread from 2009 which answered several questions, including the book title and author.

 

 

So now, if I understand correctly, my 815 squadron Swordfish will have been a Fairey-built airframe in S1E scheme, which scheme included the shadow shading, but with the grey overpainted with black well in advance of Taranto so it would have been very faded.  
 

Some of the forgoing could be different based on whether the airframe I do was a replacement or original, but that would only likely change the amount of weathering wear and tear, not so much the overall paint scheme because even repaints were likely to have redone - if necessary - the shadow shading because it was still part of spec in that timeframe.

 

Hopefully, I’ve got that straight.  
 

Now I’m off to see if I can find Stuart Lloyd’s book.

 

Cheers.

[Dunny]

2 hours ago, mark.au said:

Hopefully, I’ve got that straight.  

Mark

 

Crikey - it's a bit of a minefield, this one. You appear to be heading in the right direction though, as always!

 

Cheers,

 

Roger

[iang]

13 hours ago, mark.au said:

Apologies for the somewhat stream-of-consciousness posting this morning…

 

In searching for what the S1E scheme was (because I’m learning to not rely on my assumptions, painfully slowly it must be said) I found this thread from 2009 which answered several questions, including the book title and author.

 

 

So now, if I understand correctly, my 815 squadron Swordfish will have been a Fairey-built airframe in S1E scheme, which scheme included the shadow shading, but with the grey overpainted with black well in advance of Taranto so it would have been very faded.  
 

Some of the forgoing could be different based on whether the airframe I do was a replacement or original, but that would only likely change the amount of weathering wear and tear, not so much the overall paint scheme because even repaints were likely to have redone - if necessary - the shadow shading because it was still part of spec in that timeframe.

 

Hopefully, I’ve got that straight.  
 

Now I’m off to see if I can find Stuart Lloyd’s book.

 

Cheers.

 

Mark, 

That's all correct. If you are doing Swayne's 4M, I don't have any evidence that it was replaced (as indicated in my last post). The serial of the airframe in August 1940 pictured in my book is P4154 (it is visible in the original but not in the printed reproduction). When the black was painted, a small rectangle of Sky-Grey containing the serial was left unpainted. There are also photographs of Williamson's 4A in the book, where I postulate an L range serial number in the notes. I'm now convinced this can't be correct ( I was trying to read it as white on black, but it is in fact black on Sky-Grey). It also seems implausible that the C/O would be flying a significantly older airframe than the rest of the squadron (all other known Illustrious Swordfish codes are in the P range). I've spent hours trying to enhance the images of his aircraft where the serial is visible and my best guess for 4A is P4014, but I don't have a high degree of confidence in this. Nevertheless, the photograph of 815 squadron ranged on deck showing 4A is instructive, as the black distemper appears to have faded to a dirty dark grey, but Italian photos of 4A after salvage show the distemper as a black colour, so I assume the distemper was re-applied before the attack (probably at Dekheila between 24-28 October). Unless, of course, Williamson's Taranto 4A was a replacement airframe with freshly applied distemper (this is possible if the original 4A was the 815 Squadron victim of the hangar fire on 18 October, otherwise it seems unlikely). So if I was modelling 4M, I would use tyre black for the distemper and leave it at that.  Incidentally, an interesting 815 Squadron Swordfish would be 4B as it carried the name "Blunderbus" on the rudder,  but sadly I don't know the serial.

 

HTH,

Ian

[bigbadbadge]

Crikey, some amazing information there from Ian, really fascinating stuff.  Really looking forward to seeing this develope Mark.

I am definitely sticking to the Bomber version on my build!!!

Chris

[mark.au]

22 minutes ago, bigbadbadge said:

Crikey, some amazing information there from Ian, really fascinating stuff.  Really looking forward to seeing this develope Mark.

I am definitely sticking to the Bomber version on my build!!!

Chris

Indeed, Chris, absolute gold.  I’m switching to a torpedo armed 815 airframe, so you have a clear path on the Bomber.  All we need to do now is get @Dunny to build a flare bird and we have the set.

 

32 minutes ago, iang said:

 

Mark, 

That's all correct. If you are doing Swayne's 4M, I don't have any evidence that it was replaced (as indicated in my last post). The serial of the airframe in August 1940 pictured in my book is P4154 (it is visible in the original but not in the printed reproduction). When the black was painted, a small rectangle of Sky-Grey containing the serial was left unpainted. There are also photographs of Williamson's 4A in the book, where I postulate an L range serial number in the notes. I'm now convinced this can't be correct ( I was trying to read it as white on black, but it is in fact black on Sky-Grey) as  it seems implausible that the C/O would be flying a significantly older airframe than the rest of the squadron (all other known Illustrious Swordfish codes are in the P range). I've spent hours trying to enhance the images of his aircraft where the serial is visible and my best guess for 4A is P4014, but I don't have a high degree of confidence in this. Nevertheless, the photograph of 815 squadron ranged on deck showing 4A is instructive, as the black distemper appears to have faded to a dirty dark grey, but Italian photos of 4A after salvage show the distemper as a black colour, so I assume the distemper was re-applied before the attack. So if I was modelling 4M, I would use tyre black for the distemper and leave it at that.  Incidentally, an interesting 815 Squadron Swordfish would be 4B as it carried the name "Blunderbuss" on the fin, but sadly I don't know the serial.

 

HTH,

Ian

 

Ian, it’s beyond just helping, it’s all the missing info.  Thank you very much.  I’m very intrigued now by 4B and wondering if I can make a mask that will work for it.  I was erring towards 4A as 4M is well modelled already - and there’s at least the wreck photo of 4A as something of a guide.  I’m not far off having to make that decision.

 

Today I completed the wings to a base level.  There’s work still to do but the steps today took me through base coating the black, adding the texture to it, as well as fading.  The black isn’t finished, the subsequent treatments will wear it further, but the canvass is ready.

 

I flipped the wings over and painted the EDSG and DSG.  I used the colours “neat” for the upper wing and mixed 5:1 base colour with light grey for the shadow effect.  The photo below shows a stark difference under the seal coat, when it weather down to the final finish that contrast will became a measure subtler.  With the base colours in place, I textured with a lighter and darker filter of each colour, plus a very light post shade around the control surfaces and access panel on the upper port wing.
 

Then, I went to the computer to make the masks for the markings.  The roundels were simple but I also did the fuselage and fin flash.  For the fuselage roundels I distorted the outer edge a little to represent the black hand painted around it, but I may in the end go with a clean roundel because I think they may have made sure it was well painted, not hurriedly done so.  no about that.

 

I painted the roundels using mixes of the artist acrylic I like because they dry so well and quickly that I can literally mask over them five minutes after application.  I’m not very patient :). As I painted the roundels I added texture to them as well.

 

Finally, and just before being called to the dinner table, I sealed all that work under a light clear coat.  In the photo below much of what I’ve described has been obliterated by the sealing coat and reflection, but it’ll all come back to life when I put the finish coats on.  
 

After that lengthy description I have but one photo to show for it all, I was so in true zone that I didn’t take a single in-progress shot.  Some WIP thread author I turned out to be…. 🤦‍♂️
 

 

Cheers.

[Dunny]

Niiiiice - a flare bird, you say? I'm definitely interested. Some information gold coming out here...

[iang]

One other point about the bombers/flare droppers. The Admiralty documents are emphatic that ALL Taranto Swordfish were fitted with 60 gal. internal tanks. This also implies that this modification was made to Eagle's donated airframes too.

[ClaudioN]

On 7/7/2022 at 10:44 AM, mark.au said:

it had the additional effect of pinning the Italian Navy in its northern ports for the remainder of its involvement in the war.

Well, not really... just one week later the two undamaged battleships Vittorio Veneto and Giulio Cesare were at sea in an attempt to intercept Ark Royal and Argus (Operation White). Although no contact was made, Argus was forced to fly off reinforcement Hurricanes for Malta too early, resulting in the loss at sea of many of them with their pilots. The battle of Cape Spartivento took place on 27 November and, again, those two battleships were at sea.

 

Of course, the Italian battleship force had been halved at Taranto, one battleship (Conte di Cavour) never returning to service. Furthermore, damaged ships had been one from each of the three battleship classes then serving with the Regia Marina, resulting in somewhat heterogeneous battle groups since then.

 

It has often been argued that the biggest limitation to naval activities was the strict "fleet in being" policy adopted by the Regia Marina (think of Admiral Somerville at Addu Atoll for a comparison), while commanders at sea were overruled on the conduct of naval engagements by the Naval General Staff (SuperMarina).

Edited July 25, 2022 by ClaudioN

[bigbadbadge]

Cracking work Mark, I can't wait to see all the weathering effects come into play once your matt coats go on.  It looks very nice indeed.

 

33 minutes ago, iang said:

One other point about the bombers/flare droppers. The Admiralty documents are emphatic that ALL Taranto Swordfish were fitted with 60 gal. internal tanks. This also implies that this modification was made to Eagle's donated airframes too.

Thanks Ian , I am building the bomber version, so that info is wonderful thank you.  I take it that they were placed directly behind the pilot's position in place of the second crew position ?

Chris

[ClaudioN]

1 hour ago, iang said:

Nevertheless, the photograph of 815 squadron ranged on deck showing 4A is instructive, as the black distemper appears to have faded to a dirty dark grey, but Italian photos of 4A after salvage show the distemper as a black colour, so I assume the distemper was re-applied before the attack (probably at Dekheila between 24-28 October). Unless, of course, Williamson's Taranto 4A was a replacement airframe with freshly applied distemper (this is possible if the original 4A was the 815 Squadron victim of the hangar fire on 18 October, otherwise it seems unlikely).

I tried to compare details of Williamson's recovered Swordfish in Italian photos with '4A' in Ian's book and there are seemingly very slight differences in the shape of the '4A' code (maybe @iang remembers we had been pondering over this). Issuing the CO with a newer airframe would not sound unlikely and I'd go with this assumption. Which is unfortunate, as we "almost" had the serial for '4A' on Illustrious' deck (I only have a magnifying glass to look at the photo on the back cover of Ian's book, what I get is P4....).

[iang]

23 minutes ago, bigbadbadge said:

Cracking work Mark, I can't wait to see all the weathering effects come into play once your matt coats go on.  It looks very nice indeed.

 

Thanks Ian , I am building the bomber version, so that info is wonderful thank you.  I take it that they were placed directly behind the pilot's position in place of the second crew position ?

Chris

Yes, with the aircraft code repeated on the rearward face (at least on 4A).

[bigbadbadge]

1 hour ago, iang said:

Yes, with the aircraft code repeated on the rearward face (at least on 4A).

Thanks Ian,  that's brilliant,  very kind of you.

Chris

[iang]

3 hours ago, ClaudioN said:

I tried to compare details of Williamson's recovered Swordfish in Italian photos with '4A' in Ian's book and there are seemingly very slight differences in the shape of the '4A' code (maybe @iang remembers we had been pondering over this). Issuing the CO with a newer airframe would not sound unlikely and I'd go with this assumption. Which is unfortunate, as we "almost" had the serial for '4A' on Illustrious' deck (I only have a magnifying glass to look at the photo on the back cover of Ian's book, what I get is P4....).

 

 

Yes, it appears they are different.

 

4A in the mediterranean, with black distemper faded and worn to dirty grey:

 

4A after salvage following the Taranto attack:

 

So maybe Williamson's original aircraft was the 815 Squadron victim of the hangar fire on October 18?

[iang]

4 hours ago, bigbadbadge said:

Thanks Ian,  that's brilliant,  very kind of you.

Chris

 

[bigbadbadge]

2 hours ago, iang said:

 

 

Thanks Ian that's absolutely perfect thank you for your generous assistance and time. Very much appreciated. 

Chris

[mark.au]

13 hours ago, ClaudioN said:

It has often been argued that the biggest limitation to naval activities was the strict "fleet in being" policy adopted by the Regia Marina

Hi Claudio, you are of course correct that the Italian Navy did put to sea again, my comment was more in reference to the Fleet in Being policy you referred to.

 

12 hours ago, iang said:

Yes, with the aircraft code repeated on the rearward face (at least on 4A).

 

9 hours ago, iang said:

Yes, it appears they are different.

 

4A in the mediterranean, with black distemper faded and worn to dirty grey:

 

4A after salvage following the Taranto attack:

 

So maybe Williamson's original aircraft was the 815 Squadron victim of the hangar fire on October 18?

 

6 hours ago, iang said:

 

Absolutely great stuff there Ian, thank you again.  The code on the back of the fuel tank is one of those little details I just love, now I just need to find a way to add teeny tiny letters to the tank itself.  
 

I have only one other question that came to mind as I was falling asleep; were the wing pylons still attached to the wings for the torpedo-armed aircraft or were they removed to reduce drag/save fuel?  I think I’ve seen photos of both configurations.

 

Cheers.

 

 

 

Edited July 24, 2022 by mark.au

[mark.au]

2 hours ago, mark.au said:

I have only one other question that came to mind as I was falling asleep; were the wing pylons still attached to the wings for the torpedo-armed aircraft or were they removed to reduce drag/save fuel?  I think I’ve seen photos of both configurations.

 

I believe that in the photo below the bomb pylons can be seen still attached to the wing, so that answers that.

 

 

 

[Richard502]

Re. "4A":
1) can the difference in appearance of the black distemper in the pics iang posted (dirty faded grey in the on-dec pic versus shiny black in the Italian photo) be explained by 4A's immersion in Taranto harbor? Would wet fabric make the paint look glossy?

2) was the auxiliary tank camouflaged? In the photo showing the code the tank's rear face looks two-colored.

3) what was the purpose of painting the code on the tank? To reassure the gunner he was in the right plane?

4) some photos of Swordfish with folded wings show the individual code repeated inside the wing fold. Do I see a white "A" on the on-deck photo of "4A" on the lower wing-fold?

 

[mark.au]

31 minutes ago, Richard502 said:

Re. "4A":
1) can the difference in appearance of the black distemper in the pics iang posted (dirty faded grey in the on-dec pic versus shiny black in the Italian photo) be explained by 4A's immersion in Taranto harbor? Would wet fabric make the paint look glossy?

2) was the auxiliary tank camouflaged? In the photo showing the code the tank's rear face looks two-colored.

3) what was the purpose of painting the code on the tank? To reassure the gunner he was in the right plane?

4) some photos of Swordfish with folded wings show the individual code repeated inside the wing fold. Do I see a white "A" on the on-deck photo of "4A" on the lower wing-fold?

 

Hi Richard.  Good questions!  I don’t know the answer to any of them but some thoughts…

 

1. That occurred to me too.  However, I think there’s also a difference in the placement of 4A on the fin between the two photos, and the fin flash looks different to me as well.  I think it’s likely either a repaint or a different airframe.
2. It looks to me the two tone is a reflective difference as the tank appears dented from the crash
3. 😂 , but more likely to match fittings and/or ensure allocation for each aircraft 
4. The version of tha5 photo in thread has the wing fold cropped out, can’t comment on that on.

Cheers.

[iang]

3. It maybe that the tanks were marked because of concerns over fuel contamination. Illustrious lost 4 Swordfish prior to Taranto from this cause.

4. 815 Squadron Swordfish carried a single aircraft identification letter on the outer lower wing face.

 

The photograph of Illustrious' Swordfish ranged on deck in my book, shows Skuas aft, so must have been taken on her shake-down cruise before Illustrious returned to the UK on July 28 1940. The two sections of Skuas and one of Fulmars of 806 squadron that she sailed with to Bermuda were replaced by three sections of Fulmars when she sailed for the Mediterranean on August 30 1940. Originally 815 carried codes on the fin that were red? outlined in white, though these were overpainted with solid white at some point fairly early on. Certainly this was before she sailed from Bermuda back to the UK.  I have a photos of 4B and 4C at Bermuda where the codes are still red? outlined in white, so I suspect the change was made at Bermuda. The individual aircraft letter code A on the outer face of the lower wing fold on 4A appears to have retained this earlier red? outlined in white format. Whether these wing fold letters were ever overpainted in solid white I do not know, but I suspect replacement aircraft with white codes also had  repeats of their individual letters in white on their wing folds. 

 

From the Squadron Diary it is known that several replacements were allocated to 815 Squadron at Donibristle before the accelerator trials on the Clyde on August 8, and this is when Williamson took over as C/O. so it seems likely that his was one of the replacements prior to sailing for the Mediterranean. 

 

 

 

[heloman1]

Wow guys, the info and cross reference that is coming out here is bewildering. I never go to this length in researching ref for my builds. My gast is well and truly flabbered.

It's a pity Tony O'Toole is not longer here in BM. I'm sure he would have also had some very interesting input! The guys breadth of research was immense...

 

Colin

[ClaudioN]

1 hour ago, iang said:

The individual aircraft letter code A on the outer face of the lower wing fold on 4A appears to have retained this earlier red? outlined in white format. Whether these wing fold letters were ever overpainted in solid white I do not know, but I suspect replacement aircraft with white codes also had  repeats of their individual letters in white on their wing folds.

 

Ian,

 

behind '4A' in the photograph, '4K' has a light-coloured square patch on the wing fold, in the same position as 'A'. Any idea? Makes me think of flight colours.

 

Claudio

[iang]

5 minutes ago, ClaudioN said:

 

Ian,

 

behind '4A' in the photograph, '4K' has a light-coloured square patch on the wing fold, in the same position as 'A'. Any idea? Makes me think of flight colours.

 

Claudio

Yes, I noticed that too. I can't see the K on the patch, but presume it is present, unless the aircraft code changed and the patch overpainted the original code. To port, 4L has the L in white and 4C behind 'Blunderbus' has the C in white too, so not flight colours in my view.

[mark.au]

7 hours ago, heloman1 said:

Wow guys, the info and cross reference that is coming out here is bewildering. I never go to this length in researching ref for my builds. My gast is well and truly flabbered.

It's a pity Tony O'Toole is not longer here in BM. I'm sure he would have also had some very interesting input! The guys breadth of research was immense...

 

Colin

Yes, on all counts.  Many thanks to @iang and @ClaudioN for such great info and discussion.

[opus999]

Just caught up on this one... This looks really nice so far Mark!  I'm following with interest...