Jump to content

F6F-3 Panel Lines


Recommended Posts

This probably should go in the tools & tips section so apologies but I'm now at the point of highlighting the panel lines and making a start on the weathering so I'm looking for some advice please regarding using black ink.

 

I have some Flory washes but never had much success with them as they have always tended to disappear after applying the final varnish coat and sometimes the rubbing process removes the decals even though hey are sealed under an oil based varnish. As such I'm now toying with the possibility of using black ink instead but wondered if anyone else has gone down this route for panel lines and what would be the possible pitfalls? Another possibility is using thinned Tamiya 'smoke' as well but not sure that its solvent would cause damage to the underlying varnish so ink sounds a safer bet in theory.

 

Regards

Colin.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Inks are OK, but I've found them to be inconsistent - although that's probably me, not the ink.

 

What I have had great success with is Tamiya Panel Line Accent Color (here's a link to a certain retail site so that you can see what they look like: https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=tamiya+panel+line+accent&tag=duckduckgo-ffab-uk-b-21). I have black, light grey and brown, and mix them as needed depending on the colour they're going over.

 

They are enamel-based, so can be thinned with enamel thinners or Turpenoid. It's also best to apply them over an acrylic varnish such as Tamiya X-22 or X-35, Future/Klear, Winsor & Newton Galeria, etc., etc.

 

If you don't like the effect - colour too dark/light for example - you can remove them with a cotton bud dampened with thinners, then start again.

 

Another good technique is thinning oil paints in Turpenoid or naptha. Just as controllable as enamel, and as easy to mix the colours you need. Again, these would go over an acrylic varnish.

 

HTH

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The problem I have is that my varnish is oil based (Humbrol 'cote') so I can't risk a wash that is thinned using terps or similar as it will just eat away at everything underneath, a lesson learned form bitter experience a while ago even though I'd let the varnish harden for over 2 days so thought it would be OK.

 

I do have some W&N acrylic paints in tubes that look the same as their oils so I could use these thinned with distilled water but I suspect the pigments will not flow so freely.

 

Regards

Colin.

 

Ps. it seems all current makers of 'washes' assume they are being applied over an acrylic varnish and therefore 'enamel' users are being left with relatively few options other than using oils and pastels, and possibly inks

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not aware of any issues with an acrylic varnish over lacquer or enamel paint. I routinely use MSI Micro Flat and Micro Satin over Mr.Color and Alclad paints.

 

I also used to airbrush Testor's flat, satin, and gloss lacquers over various paint finishes, including Vallejo, Tamiya, Model Master, & Alclad.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, fishplanebeer said:

The problem I have is that my varnish is oil based (Humbrol 'cote') so I can't risk a wash that is thinned using terps or similar as it will just eat away at everything underneath, a lesson learned form bitter experience a while ago even though I'd let the varnish harden for over 2 days so thought it would be OK.

 

I do have some W&N acrylic paints in tubes that look the same as their oils so I could use these thinned with distilled water but I suspect the pigments will not flow so freely.

 

Regards

Colin.

 

Ps. it seems all current makers of 'washes' assume they are being applied over an acrylic varnish and therefore 'enamel' users are being left with relatively few options other than using oils and pastels, and possibly inks

That's a shame - yup, enamel-based stuff will go through oil-based varnish. That's the reason I moved to acrylic varnishes in the first place, and due to similar experiences as yours.

 

Acrylic paints will work just as well. You need to break down the surface tension of the water, and you can do that with a scant drop or two of dishwashing liquid in the mix. After that it should work prperly, and the resulting cost is a great deal less than commercial offerings.

 

Best of luck!

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Acrylics don't usually make great washes. They can do odd things like pool the pigments away from solvent painted details. The pigments also tend to be corse and get grainy looking when thinned a lot. 

I gave up on future and acrylic clears. I now use Gunze GX 100 and thin it 4:1 or more with Mr.Color Leveling Thinner. That's 4 parts of thinner to 1 part of the clear. The stuff is bullet proof when cured. You can use enamel or oil washes and any kind of decal solution you want without fear of a reaction. Likewise gx114 is the flat version and is absolutely amazing.. Spray both at 15-16 psi and don't go too wet over decals I've heard that some decals will react with it. Personally I've never had that problem with either clear. 

Good luck 

Ron 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for all the advice but it still leaves me with the problem of what wash can be safely and effectively used over an enamel varnish, which is why I thought of using ink as a safe option.

 

I did try using acrylic/water based varnishes but couldn't get the hang of them (Galeria and Klear) as the spray was too coarse and I ended up with puddles everywhere whereas the enamel varnishes I use go on perfectly using the same thinning ratio and psi. Maybe I'll have to resort to Flory washes (to my mind greatly over hyped) or use thinned acrylic paint with a drop of detergent.

 

Thanks again.

 

Regards

Colin.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Try using childrens' poster paints. 

Usually found in packs of solid blocks of different colours

Water based, water washable but not acrylics

Paint this over the model, allow to dry then use a damp sponge or cloth to remove from where you don't want it

Leave it as it is or spray a varnish on over it all

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Colin,

 

Have you tried this wash? You can make the wash any color you want. I routinely use Gunze or my limited supply of Polly Scale. I have not tried any other water compatible acrylic paint.  You can obtain the original article here, Sludge wash.

 

Don

 

20220706-200804.jpg

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

My question to you would be, are you trying to highlight each and every panel line?  If so, DON'T DO IT!  I've spent a lot of time being around the real things and there are very few panels on any aircraft that would show highlighting.  Take a look at these two photos of a weathered C-141B:

 

246-2[1] 246-1[1]

This was 65-0246, sometimes known as a motor home with a T-Tail.  It had been in a very preventable ground accident and lost the left wing due to a resultant fire.  It later had the right wing removed to bring another aircraft back up to flying status.  The tail section was exposed to the elements for several years while the nose section was inside of a hangar.  The only panel lines you can really make out in either of these photos are for control surfaces and doors.  Some others would also be somewhat visible but NOTHING like what Hasegawa started in their instructions several decades ago with each and every panel line highlighted.  It just doesn't happen.  If you are only wanting to do a few panel lines, then carry on and don't worry about this post.

Later,

Dave

Edited by e8n2
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd agree with Dave there. Weathering is great fun, but let photographs of the real thing guide you. If you do need to highlight (or lowlight?) a recessed surface detail you can do it with a pointer brush dotted into the surface feature. Capillary action will do the rest. You're not limited to slapping wash all over the model and wiping away the copious excess. You can pin wash solvent paint based wash onto solvent base paint too, since you're not going to be soaking your dried paint in lots of fresh thinners.

 

My recent Battle of Britain film prop Spitfire was entirely oil paint weathering straight onto enamel base paint with no acrylic involved.

PXL_20220403_113743531.jpg

 

There's much to be said for a good curing time for paints too. This Mi-8 I built a few years ago has enamel filters brushed over enamel paint, again with no barrier coat. The trick is not to keep brushing and agitating the paint below while it's in a softened state.

 

Basic paints

db8b0ac2-6234-4c8a-b20c-64baacabfe4b.jpg

 

After a single stage filter the colours gained some sense of depth.

ec38279f-bbd1-4026-9671-e4349ce0a452.jpg
 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

For enamels I use good old water colours if I need the wash only to fill the panel lines (i.e. not as a filter). They‘re cheap, available in all kind of browns/blacks and mix easily. Paint a thick soup along the panel line and wipe away the excess with a damp handkerchief before fully dry. They withstand enamel final clear coats (but not acrylic!).

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ammo by Mig Oilbrushers are excellent for weathering and panel line washes. They are oil based but pre-thinned and come in a wide range of colours. They have a built in brush but I tend to put a few drops on a piece of plastic and thin the drops a bit more with some thinners then use a smaller brush to apply spots here and there then let capillary action do the hard work. The resulting paint can be left for a few hours before being wiped off in the direction of air flow on the real thing (or gravity depending on what effect you want). I tend to use a colour called "Starship Grime", which is a dirty brown colour, as I think black is way too stark. For your F6F-3 I presume you will be doing the tri-color scheme  so you could try using a dark grey on the darkest blue and go with a lighter grey then light brown as you go lighter to the white underside.

 

2018-09-11%2014.05.32-L.jpg

 

This is my HobbyBoss F4F-4 and I didn't have the Oilbrushers at the time I did this one so used an enamel based wash from AK Interactive over an acrylic clear coat (on top of Colourcoats enamel paints). If I was to do this one again I would probably tone down the outer wing panel line wash a little as it's too strong for the intermediate blue (but would be fine on a darker blue as in the tricolour scheme) although the fuselage is fine (I must have got a bit over enthusiastic the doing the wings!).

 

Duncan B

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I use artists oil colours thinned with turpenoid and it goes over the base enamel paint with no ill effects.

 

Black lines appeared with engraved lines many moons ago and was promptly shot down in flames as being unrealistic.

 

I mix an oil colour that is somewhat darker than the camouflage and apply it sparingly, it's very easy to overdo it, but then you can remove it with a cotton bud dipped in Turpenoid.

 

Again I would recommend trying on a paint mule. A nearly finished model is far too valuable to use in an experiment.

 

/Finn

 

Link to an example

 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just a quick aside, what are filters as I've always been amazed at the fading effects people are able to achieve on RFI to the basic airframe colour but have no idea how this is achieved as even after applying a panel wash it still leaves the base colour as is and not weathered or faded in any way? I've seen the Flory video on using oils to add fading but there again the chap doing it has done it before and makes it look so easy which I'm sure it isn't!

 

I won't be using much in the way of weathering on this project as it's taken me almost 6 months to get to this stage and it's already been in the bin once already (and I then spent 2 hours the following day retrieving it after sifting through the bin bag) but it would be nice to know so that I can practice on a mule for my next project.

 

Regards

Colin.

 

Ps. I will be so glad when this one is over the line as it has been one disaster after another.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, Duncan B said:

Ammo by Mig Oilbrushers are excellent for weathering and panel line washes. They are oil based but pre-thinned and come in a wide range of colours. They have a built in brush but I tend to put a few drops on a piece of plastic and thin the drops a bit more with some thinners then use a smaller brush to apply spots here and there then let capillary action do the hard work. The resulting paint can be left for a few hours before being wiped off in the direction of air flow on the real thing (or gravity depending on what effect you want). I tend to use a colour called "Starship Grime", which is a dirty brown colour, as I think black is way too stark. For your F6F-3 I presume you will be doing the tri-color scheme  so you could try using a dark grey on the darkest blue and go with a lighter grey then light brown as you go lighter to the white underside.

 

2018-09-11%2014.05.32-L.jpg

 

This is my HobbyBoss F4F-4 and I didn't have the Oilbrushers at the time I did this one so used an enamel based wash from AK Interactive over an acrylic clear coat (on top of Colourcoats enamel paints). If I was to do this one again I would probably tone down the outer wing panel line wash a little as it's too strong for the intermediate blue (but would be fine on a darker blue as in the tricolour scheme) although the fuselage is fine (I must have got a bit over enthusiastic the doing the wings!).

 

Duncan B

That was the blue-gray over light gray scheme.  Intermediate Blue came in with the three (actually four) color scheme mid war.

Later,

Dave

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I second both the artists oils and the slightly darker than the underlying colour idea. Artists oils with lighter fluid works very well and because the pigment is so fine you get very good coverage. The lighter fuel evaporates quickly so you get no reaction but it wipes off easily with kitchen roll or an old bit of cotton (worn out boxers if I'm honest). For me the point is to add an illusion of depth rather than a stark outline. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, Phoenix44 said:

I second both the artists oils and the slightly darker than the underlying colour idea. Artists oils with lighter fluid works very well and because the pigment is so fine you get very good coverage. The lighter fuel evaporates quickly so you get no reaction but it wipes off easily with kitchen roll or an old bit of cotton (worn out boxers if I'm honest). For me the point is to add an illusion of depth rather than a stark outline. 

 

I used to use artists oils but switched to Abteilung 502 oils as I fine them to be finer (than Winsor & Newton oils anyway) and you get colours more suited to out hobby. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, fishplanebeer said:

I've seen the Flory video on using oils to add fading but there again the chap doing it has done it before and makes it look so easy which I'm sure it isn't!

Turns out, it actually is. I'm guessing it's the Abteilung one you've seen. 
The trick is to not have a big contrast in the used colour, for instance on the F-4 Duncan posted, a light grey will blend into the M-485 Blue and give a faded effect. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/7/2022 at 1:35 AM, Toryu said:

For enamels I use good old water colours if I need the wash only to fill the panel lines (i.e. not as a filter). They‘re cheap, available in all kind of browns/blacks and mix easily. Paint a thick soup along the panel line and wipe away the excess with a damp handkerchief before fully dry. They withstand enamel final clear coats (but not acrylic!).

A lot of great points here!

 

I've never used inks, but for years did simple cheap kid's watercolors for pin washes. Easy to mix up whatever color you want, can build them up slowly, and change or "erase" very easily until you're happy.

 

Lately I've been using Windsor & Newton oils, with their "Sansodor" thinner. I use it over a clear lacquer coat, but it's so mild that I wouldn't be afraid to use it directly on enamels.

 

I agree with comments about over-weathering, especially in my pet 1/72 scale. I used a dark black-brown mix for deep shadows like the aileron joint, or to represent actual grime like around engines and guns. But at other panel lines you are more creating subtle visual highlighting than doing true weathering, there I use shades of gray or something close to the underlying camo color.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, MDriskill said:

But at other panel lines you are more creating subtle visual highlighting than doing true weathering


Sometimes a thin pencil drawn along the panel line is just right

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...