"British" Fordson 917t's - left or right hand drive?

[bootneck]

I have been looking for images of Fordson 917t's in British use, but only found views of this restored version.   Can anyone tell me whether the British version was left or right hand drive please?  Also, how many were in British use and what variants could have been found?

 

cheers,

Mike

[smaug8u]

Mike,

 

If you put Fordson Sussex into google you will get some other variants of British right hand drive vehicles.

 

Don

[Kingsman]

Definitely RHD.  917 was the 1939 157" WB model, which Germany stuck with throughout WW2.  Elsewhere the models and numbers evolved so in British service either of UK manufacture or as supplied by Canada and the US you're more likely to find the 1940 model 158" WB 018.  That being said the differences were minor.  1" on the wheelbase is a hair's breadth in any scale.......  But as Ford GB moved on to the simplified WOT series the barrel-nose cab became rare in Army service.  And Ford GB had the UK-specific 7V COE design.  The barrel-nose cab was more common in RAF service, particularly on the 3-axle chassis and more particularly as a balloon winch.

 

What scale are you thinking? There are a few Ford barrel-nose choices in 1/72 in both 2 and 3-axle versions, many fewer in 1/35 and only 1 at a reasonable price: the ICM offering.  On which the nose is apparently too long and the wrong shape, and the Cologne cab pressings were a little different from their British, US and Canadian counterparts.

 

Knowing your past interest in airfield vehicles, the RAF had some Armadillos on 917 or 018 trucks.

[bootneck]

Thanks guys.  My scale will be 1:35 and I saw an ICM 917t, the German version which interested me.  I plan to get that kit, I haven't seen a British or Canadian version to this scale.  Hopefully I will be be able to convert it to a British version, by chopping off the nose and remodelling it.

 

cheers,
Mike

[bootneck]

18 hours ago, smaug8u said:

If you put Fordson Sussex into google you will get some other variants of British right hand drive vehicles.

Hi Don,

 

when I search on Fordson Sussex, I see quite a few images of Thames vehicles appear.  Did these Thames share the same chassis or bodywork?  Just wondering why the come up in the searches.

 

cheers,
Mike

[Kingsman]

Fordson Sussex should rightfully only find the 6x4 chassis as that name was solely applied to that configuration using the County Commercials Sussex tandem-drive rear bogie.

 

Pre-war the commercial vehicle brand name was Fordson.  In 1939 that changed to Fordson Thames for civilian vehicles (but not military products like the WOTs).  In 1952 the name changed again to Ford Thames and in 1965 it became just Ford.  Civilian truck production in the UK pretty much stopped during WW2 and you could only buy one with a special government permit.

 

In the 1930s and WW2 era the chassis, engines and some of the cabs were essentially common across all Ford subsidiaries and shared the same type numbering sequence with national letter identifiers.  The G917 was German, the British equivalent was the E917 and so on.  The 917 and 018 chassis were built in the USA, Canada, UK, Germany, Australia and South Africa.  Marmon-Herrington 4WD conversions were built in Canada, Australia and South Africa rather than the WOT series.  In 1941 the barrel nose was replaced by the simpler (and uglier!) vertical slatted design as per ICM's V3000 kit.  During the 1950s the model uniformity across Ford subsidiaries was beginning to break down and national model ranges diverged. 

[bootneck]

Impressive, and very enlightening, thank you again DA.  One of the images that pops up on the Fordson Sussex search is this one and also this image.  Would you know if the 917t chassis was similar for this bodywork?  I would really like to make a model of it.

 

cheers,

 

Mike

[Kingsman]

Well neither of those is a Sussex as they have 2 axles.  The perils of incorrect image captions.  As my old maths teacher used to say, you need some idea of what the answer will look like before you ask the question! 

 

Those are both Fordson Thames ET6s (petrol) or ET7s (diesel).  The 4D on the grille of the blue one says it's a post-1953 3.6 litre 4-cyl petrol model.  That engine replaced the old 3.6 litre V8.  A diesel would have a 6D badge.  Any without a badge are pre-53 and V8 petrol.  There were 3-axle Sussex versions, as it happens.  The main part of the cab structure was shared with the Dodge 100 "Kew" and Leyland Comet.  Different bonnets, although the Dodge was very similar to the Ford.  The Leyland was very much uglier........

 

This model was the immediate post-war successor to the pre-war and wartime Ford(son) designs, and the previous model designation solely by engine size and wheelbase had disappeared.  Produced from 1949 until 1957.  Used by Army and RAF in various "domestic" (i.e. non-tactical) forms.

 

I imagine the chassis are so similar that no-one will know...........

[Kingsman]

The Vanderveen/Olyslager bible says that the UK used Fordson E018Ts as 4x2 30cwt trucks and E917Ts and E817Ts as 3-ton 6x4 trucks in WW2.  Those are the only mentions of civilian-pattern Fordsons in the 30cwt+ weight classes.  No pictures of the 4x2 though.  Ford quickly moved on to produce the WOT pattern trucks.  Apparently there were just over 1,100 of the 4x2s but perhaps only a couple of dozen of the 6x4s, which seems very low noting how many you see.  That may just be the Army number.

 

If you look very carefully you can just see the grille of a 4x2 817/917/018 poking out behind the front Bedford in this line-up of RAF Armadillos at RAF Wyton.  All are on different chassis, impressed civilian I believe: Fordson 7V far right.  A project I have often fancied.  With real wood........

 

The 6x4 817/917 Sussex chassis is the one you see, usually RAF and usually as either an airfield fire tender or as a barrage balloon winch although there were others.  But here is a little-seen Army 6x4, I believe with searchlight body.  The searchlight and generator were carried in the back with ramps to dismount.  This model was replaced by the WOT1 and longer wheelbase WOT1A.

 

Here's another, a GS truck but RAF again.  You can just make out the camouflage on the cab, which should be Green G4 over Khaki Green G3.

 

The RAF had some 300-odd 1941 11T model US/Canadian Fords in N Africa with the slatted grille (like ICM's V3000 kit).

 

 

Another 180 or so were the 1942 model G8T like this with the "jailbar" grille.

 

[bootneck]

Those are great photos, including lots of additional information.  Thank you very much for your time to search these out, and for the extra details. 

 

Mike

[Nigel Bunker]

On 7/5/2022 at 12:59 PM, Das Abteilung said:

the ICM offering.  On which the nose is apparently too long and the wrong shape

Like Mike, I quite fancy modifying the ICM G917T into something used by the British forces. If the nose is wrong, can anybody point me towards plans which will help me rectify this?

[Kingsman]

There are no conversion kits, perhaps surprisingly for such an important truck for the German war effort, and the Panzer Art winter bonnet is the same wrong shape.  Someone has done a correction on a model build but I'm damned if I can find it now.

 

As I understand it the lower edge of the bonnet sides should be about level with the lower edge of the wings/fenders.  On the ICM kit it protrudes further as this photo shows.  If you look closely on the plan in the left photo you will se that the nose sits well inside the front bumper whereas in the right picture it overhangs noticeably.  The angle of the front edge of the bonnet sides is too upright on the kit, making the grille too upright.  This is correctable with a razor saw.  BUT the resulting shape then does not fit the grille moulding provided, which has become too narrow and too short.  The grille itself in the kit tapers too much towards the bottom anyway and should be more rounded.  So that means a scratchbuilt grille and perhaps some hot-water bending of the bonnet sides or the use of filler to get them to a more rounded cross-section.  I believe those plans came from the Blueprints website here https://www.the-blueprints.com/search/g917/

 

    

 

You would be much better off doing something with the V3000 kit as that V-nose bonnet with slatted lower grill was far more common in Commonwealth service, being built in Canada and Australia as well as the USA: I believe they were also assembled in India (and in S Africa??).  Although there were some minor national differences in cab pressings and very many different bodies.  Dnepro Model even do a nice but expensive Marmon Herrington 4x4 chassis/cab.  That conversion was much used by Commonwealth forces, notably Australia.  They also do an M-H 4x4 conversion for the ICM kit and a civilian stakeside truck that looks very much like those used by the RAF in N Africa.  In fact they are pretty much the kings of Ford trucks of that era.  But even they haven't done a corrected front end for the ICM kit.

 

           

 

Not British but I've often fancied the Dutch Ford PAG-Trekker as later used by the Germans (came in both grille types)

[bootneck]

As usual, DA comes up with not only the facts but also suggestions and recommendations for a solution.  I was following the thread quite nicely until the phrase "You would be much better off doing something with the V3000 kit".  What kit is that?

 

cheers,
Mike

[Kingsman]

That will be this one......  It was called the V3000S in Germany as Ford Germany differentiated itself from Fords Elsewhere.  Not a cab type made in the UK but made in many other Ford national plants as the model 018: 1940, 158"wb.  But at least some work will be needed to make any Commonwealth version.

 

Australia had a chunky-looking field gun tractor version with the M-H 4x4 drive. 

 

They also had the earlier 917 with 4x4.

 

Canadian built 4x2 version as used by UK.

 

 

Going off on another tangent there are things you can do with the old Tamiya LRDG truck, which was a normal Chevy 30cwt 4x2 before they got their hands on them......

 

Edited July 15, 2022 by Das Abteilung
addition

[Mancunian airman]

Mike

A photo for you reference 'Airfield vehicle' RAF or USAAF . . .  

Taken at Goxhill around December 1942 when the Americans took over the place.

Until they received their own vehicles they used Wot 1 as crew buses and the Bedford Mw as a 'run-around'  . . .

 

 

You would do well to get the 1939 Stake bed truck from Dnepro to give you a start on the cab,   make your own long chassis, four rear wheels with the kit and you are on your way  . . .

I hope this helps . . . 

Ian

Edited August 11, 2022 by Mancunian airman