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Snobbery and greed in hobbies.


RobL

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well i bought kits, and i plan on building them.  on some i wish i KNEW how to make the interiors nice and shiny. However to do that would most likely take months of hunting down books that havent been published in 60 years, if ever, or spending 5 times the kit price for one or two little components. 

 

Heres an example, the eduard nieuport kits i have.. 1:72 scale meanies...  they have the dual kit gives you 2 for the price of one weekend edition, plus each comes with the mask and the photo etch... so you only spend 24 instead of 70$ if you got two kits, then did the masking and photo etch.. 

 

where am i going oh yeah,, they have a hanriot hd 2   oh those elitists.

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11 hours ago, FLCH said:

.. I forgot to mention to him that I’m a Captain at United Airlines on the 767, but that’s ok 😂 

 

Ah, now I get your username.

 

Flight Level Change..✈️

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1 hour ago, Bertie Psmith said:

Er, be careful about wishing competitive behaviour away, it made our world. 
 

Not so sure, it was the ability of early hominids to pass on information and work with others as a group that enabled humans to develop. A single early hominid, no matter how competitive with his peers would be unlikely to survive, at least until the development of weapons that had a longer reach than the arm. Australopithecines seem to have been a favourite of early leopards judging by the fossil evidence. 

Competition is all very well, and it has positive effects, but it also has some very negative ones. 

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As both my Mum and my Sensei taught me; balance and restraint in all things. I think there's room for competitive behaviour, but not unbridled and certainly not unprincipled. I can't help thinking that the culture of economic liberalism which is currently predominant in my society is unbalanced, too reliant upon a crude reading of individualism and competitive behaviours that stress superficial, materialist values and perceptions of haves and have nots, winners and losers. Meanwhile, back at the modelling bench... applying some of the knowledge and techniques that others have generously shared with me on this forum...

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I used to be a member of a music production/technology forum a fair old while back, but ending up leaving due to rampant snobbery. If you didn’t have the latest multi-thousand pound microphone preamp or had the temerity to own a synthesiser that wasn’t an actual Moog, you were nobody. One of my friends is a professional musician/producer and he couldn’t stand it either.  
 

Nice tools are all well and good, but it’s the results that count, whether it’s the quality of the end product or the enjoyment had in the process. 

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18 minutes ago, lasermonkey said:

a synthesiser that wasn’t an actual Moog

 

Blimey, that's worse than getting caught using a Mexican Fender, surely?!  I'm lucky that for a period of my life (now long over!) I had a well-paying job and few responsibilities, and was able to amass quite a nice little collection of US-made guitars and British and American amps.  There are still people I know who tell me that I'd sound better if I used one of my LP's as my main guitar rather than "just" my Mexican Tele, or sacked my Fender amps in for a Marshall...

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1 hour ago, lasermonkey said:

Nice tools are all well and good, but it’s the results that count, whether it’s the quality of the end product or the enjoyment had in the process. 

Much reading on here of various builds, and of the sheer variety of or preferred techniques and materials,  was the reason I added the third line to my sig.....

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1 hour ago, jackroadkill said:

 

Blimey, that's worse than getting caught using a Mexican Fender, surely?!  I'm lucky that for a period of my life (now long over!) I had a well-paying job and few responsibilities, and was able to amass quite a nice little collection of US-made guitars and British and American amps.  There are still people I know who tell me that I'd sound better if I used one of my LP's as my main guitar rather than "just" my Mexican Tele, or sacked my Fender amps in for a Marshall...

I have a sneaking suspicion that you would sound like you no matter what guitar or amp you were using. It's funny just how much you can change with no apparent difference in the end result. I remember being surprised to read that Peter Buck (REM) swapped his Rickenbacker/Vox AC30 setup for a Les Paul/Marshall on The One I Love and yet it still sounds exactly like him!

 

My pro musician friend has a deal with Gibson where he gets guitars at cost. He chooses to use Epiphones (Gibson's lower-price brand, for those of us who aren't guitar nuts) as he reckons you get much more bang for your buck, although he does have a few old Gibsons that he uses at home and in the Studio. Speaking of which, when I visited his studio in Seattle, he was using a decidedly budget Mackie mixing console. The sort of thing you might find in small, independent venues or bedroom studios. He has made some great sounding records with it, so you don't need a $1M Neve or SSL console, even if they are nice if you get the chance. He did have the one Focusrite mic preamp, but that wasn't one of their top-of-the-range ones.

 

I haven't played a Mexican Tele, but I always thought the Squier Teles were way better than they had any right to be at the money. I did play a Mexican Strat once, and even though I'm not a Strat guy, I thought it was one of the better Strats I had tried. There's always a point of diminishing returns with any hobby and I think that once you get to the Mexican Fenders, you're probably getting the best quality vs price ratio. My Fender Bass VI is Mexican built.

 

I also miss the days when I had disposable income. The only thing stopping me buying guitars back then was the space to keep them! *sigh*

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5 hours ago, Mr T said:

Not so sure, it was the ability of early hominids to pass on information and work with others as a group that enabled humans to develop. A single early hominid, no matter how competitive with his peers would be unlikely to survive, at least until the development of weapons that had a longer reach than the arm. Australopithecines seem to have been a favourite of early leopards judging by the fossil evidence. 

Competition is all very well, and it has positive effects, but it also has some very negative ones. 

 

That's all true of course, as is apparent in the headlines the world over. It's vital that we humans combine and cooperate because individually we are such feeble animals and unable to compete with the predators. Passing on information and working with others has been our greatest weapon for millennia, and has put us right at the top of the food chain as we out compete so many other species into extinction, followed eventually by ourselves perhaps. It's a funny old world, isn't it? 😆

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12 hours ago, masterKamera said:

never can get a better laugh then watching adults argue over the "proper" way to hold a razor,

Heh :P As long as the missus doesn't feel stubble, it's good. 

 

 

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7 hours ago, IanC said:

 

Ah, now I get your username.

 

Flight Level Change..✈️

Cheesy I know …..

 

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First of all, I don't smoke, I don't drink (much), and I don't gamble. Most of my money goes either in to this money pit of a house, or on model building. I say this because mention has been made about how much one can spend on a single model ie; the kit itself, plus any add ons such as etch, resin etc., plus of course, decals. In my case, it can sometimes be two kits are used, each one costing £30-40. The add ons can sometimes double that cost, but it doesn't always stop there. Sometimes, I have no info on what I'm building (usually something IDF), so another $40 gets spent on a  book. So worst cast scenario, I spend well in excess on £100 on one model. BUT......so what? Nobody has gone without food because of what I've spent. The money was mine, usually in the form of birthday/Christmas presents from family. I know that some people would throw their hands up in horror at that amount. They are probably the same people who wouldn't think twice about spending a similar sum on a pair of trainers. Which is the whole point, and that is, to each his own. The end result of my mega spend may not be a miniature masterpiece, but the chances are that I got a lot of pleasure from the build.

There used to be a bit of snobbery/one upmanship at model shows in the 80's. Competition entries were supposed to be anonymous at one particular show, but it was a widely known thing that certain entrants used to write their entry cards so that they could be easily identified, and lo and behold, they always won. But when I attend the Nationals at Telford now, I don't think that I have ever come across any snobbery. @Mr T I have to take exception with something that you said regarding scratch built models (unless of course, I misunderstood the point that you were making). At SMW, scratch built models are in their own class, so you won't have an OOTB model going up against a scratch built one. But I agree with you about the 80's in general. There were a lot of modellers who thought that the gold medal was theirs by right. I'm glad to say that things have moved on considerably since then.

People build models for many reasons, and to my way of thinking, that's how it should be. Whatever floats your boat. I build for the pleasure that it gives me. I enter competitions for the same reason. I also try to make my models as best as they can be. Why? Because sometimes, I have the build published in a magazine. And that also pleases me, because I get paid money. Money which goes into the modelling pot to be spent on more models. And so the carousel continues to turn.

 

John.

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1 hour ago, Bullbasket said:

First of all, I don't smoke, I don't drink (much), and I don't gamble. Most of my money goes either in to this money pit of a house, or on model building. I say this because mention has been made about how much one can spend on a single model ie; the kit itself, plus any add ons such as etch, resin etc., plus of course, decals. In my case, it can sometimes be two kits are used, each one costing £30-40. The add ons can sometimes double that cost, but it doesn't always stop there. Sometimes, I have no info on what I'm building (usually something IDF), so another $40 gets spent on a  book. So worst cast scenario, I spend well in excess on £100 on one model. BUT......so what? Nobody has gone without food because of what I've spent. The money was mine, usually in the form of birthday/Christmas presents from family. I know that some people would throw their hands up in horror at that amount. They are probably the same people who wouldn't think twice about spending a similar sum on a pair of trainers. Which is the whole point, and that is, to each his own. The end result of my mega spend may not be a miniature masterpiece, but the chances are that I got a lot of pleasure from the build.

There used to be a bit of snobbery/one upmanship at model shows in the 80's. Competition entries were supposed to be anonymous at one particular show, but it was a widely known thing that certain entrants used to write their entry cards so that they could be easily identified, and lo and behold, they always won. But when I attend the Nationals at Telford now, I don't think that I have ever come across any snobbery. @Mr T I have to take exception with something that you said regarding scratch built models (unless of course, I misunderstood the point that you were making). At SMW, scratch built models are in their own class, so you won't have an OOTB model going up against a scratch built one. But I agree with you about the 80's in general. There were a lot of modellers who thought that the gold medal was theirs by right. I'm glad to say that things have moved on considerably since then.

People build models for many reasons, and to my way of thinking, that's how it should be. Whatever floats your boat. I build for the pleasure that it gives me. I enter competitions for the same reason. I also try to make my models as best as they can be. Why? Because sometimes, I have the build published in a magazine. And that also pleases me, because I get paid money. Money which goes into the modelling pot to be spent on more models. And so the carousel continues to turn.

 

John.

 

I agree entirely with every single word of this John. 

 

I spend all of my disposable money on the hobby and the dog. I earned the money honestly and legally. There's a kit in my stash that cost me £650, there's another that was less than a tenner, and what does that matter to anyone but me? If you envy me the big one, pity me for the cheap one too. 😄

 

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32 minutes ago, Bertie Psmith said:

 

There's a kit in my stash that cost me £650...

 

 

So, it was you that got the extremely limited edition 1/24 Blackburn Blackburn with gold etch and decals by Banksy?

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Yes. I didn't make myself clear. I was thinking in more general terms of scratch built models being on a par with the best of kits plus all the bits 

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17 minutes ago, IanC said:

 

So, it was you that got the extremely limited edition 1/24 Blackburn Blackburn with gold etch and decals by Banksy?

 

😂

 

Actually it's a wooden ship model that is going to take me two years to train up for and then three years to build so it's fairly good value for the dosh. Apart from having to move house to find room for the thing that is!

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5 hours ago, Bullbasket said:

Competition entries were supposed to be anonymous at one particular show, but it was a widely known thing that certain entrants used to write their entry cards so that they could be easily identified, and lo and behold, they always won.

 

Only time I ever entered a competition was at a small event which no longer exists , from memory that may have actually been the last year on which it was held , can't recall now if it went ahead the following year and I just didn't bother with it or not.   

 

Asked what the competition classes were and was told 'adult' or 'junior' were the only two available for aircraft.     At the end of the day turned out that there were in fact many more scale/kit/genre related classes every one of which (including forementioned 'adult' and 'junior') were won by someone wearing a badge labelling them as 'committee' or 'official'.     Other visitors commented on that not being unexpected so possibly explained why there were so many empty tables that had been set aside for clubs within reasonable distance who had not shown up to use them.

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8 hours ago, Bullbasket said:

First of all, I don't smoke, I don't drink (much), and I don't gamble. Most of my money goes either in to this money pit of a house, or on model building. I say this because mention has been made about how much one can spend on a single model ie; the kit itself, plus any add ons such as etch, resin etc., plus of course, decals. In my case, it can sometimes be two kits are used, each one costing £30-40. The add ons can sometimes double that cost, but it doesn't always stop there. Sometimes, I have no info on what I'm building (usually something IDF), so another $40 gets spent on a  book. So worst cast scenario, I spend well in excess on £100 on one model. BUT......so what? Nobody has gone without food because of what I've spent. The money was mine, usually in the form of birthday/Christmas presents from family. I know that some people would throw their hands up in horror at that amount. They are probably the same people who wouldn't think twice about spending a similar sum on a pair of trainers. Which is the whole point, and that is, to each his own. The end result of my mega spend may not be a miniature masterpiece, but the chances are that I got a lot of pleasure from the build.

There used to be a bit of snobbery/one upmanship at model shows in the 80's. Competition entries were supposed to be anonymous at one particular show, but it was a widely known thing that certain entrants used to write their entry cards so that they could be easily identified, and lo and behold, they always won. But when I attend the Nationals at Telford now, I don't think that I have ever come across any snobbery. @Mr T I have to take exception with something that you said regarding scratch built models (unless of course, I misunderstood the point that you were making). At SMW, scratch built models are in their own class, so you won't have an OOTB model going up against a scratch built one. But I agree with you about the 80's in general. There were a lot of modellers who thought that the gold medal was theirs by right. I'm glad to say that things have moved on considerably since then.

People build models for many reasons, and to my way of thinking, that's how it should be. Whatever floats your boat. I build for the pleasure that it gives me. I enter competitions for the same reason. I also try to make my models as best as they can be. Why? Because sometimes, I have the build published in a magazine. And that also pleases me, because I get paid money. Money which goes into the modelling pot to be spent on more models. And so the carousel continues to turn.

 

John.

 

 

When i plopped it down, i was half asleep and wasnt thinking straight so ill finish the thought. 

 

I can get the two-plane dual combo nieuport 17 for 25$ retail.    It consists of two weekend model kits that retail for 15-20 each, plus each kit comes with a 15$ PE section and 5$ mask kit. thats 35-45$ seperate purchases... for each model. 

 

Now what i forgot to mention is,  why is it not snobbery to release a kit to modellers, and then FORCE them to purchase kit upgrades to it, that can easily be INCLUDED in the kit and not foist that cost onto consumers?

 

in the OLD days of modelling, no one thought about a cockpit.. now its either feel shame for only using what the kit provided, or being regarded as an "adult" modeler because you double or quadruple the cost of the kit by buying all the upgrades for it..  

 

 

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7 hours ago, masterKamera said:

now its either feel shame for only using what the kit provided

Not all of us. <_< Just saying. ;) :D 

I build small kits as much OOB as I reasonably can, having learnt to, most of the time, kick my AMS into the closet. I enjoy watching advanced modellers building kits like I might, knowing I can learn stuff from them, even though I might SEEM not to apply it, it is there in spirit. :D To get through my stock, I need to build about 30 models a year for the next 15 or so, yeah right, & I know I won't manage that agonising over detail, but am grateful to those who do, they provide an invaluable yardstick for the like of me.

Steve.

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14 hours ago, Bertie Psmith said:

 

I agree entirely with every single word of this John. 

 

I spend all of my disposable money on the hobby and the dog. I earned the money honestly and legally. There's a kit in my stash that cost me £650, there's another that was less than a tenner, and what does that matter to anyone but me? If you envy me the big one, pity me for the cheap one too. 😄

 

Thanks Bertie. Like minded souls, and I like where your disposable spending goes. Mine used to be the same, but both my boys are now in that great kennel in the sky. At Telford last year, I couldn't resist what was to me, a bargain. A Classy Hobby M5A1 Stuart in 1/16th scale going for £120. I offered £100 and got it. I've never spent that much before on one kit. But it looks worth it.

A lot of people are spending much more than that on one model, but they don't realise it, because they're doing it on a weekly basis. I'm talking of course about "part works". My bother has built two, a U boat and the Bismark, Both cost somewhere in the region of £800-£1000. Not my cup of tea, but if it gives them enjoyment in building the model, good luck to them.

 

John.

 

 

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8 hours ago, masterKamera said:

 

 

When i plopped it down, i was half asleep and wasnt thinking straight so ill finish the thought. 

 

I can get the two-plane dual combo nieuport 17 for 25$ retail.    It consists of two weekend model kits that retail for 15-20 each, plus each kit comes with a 15$ PE section and 5$ mask kit. thats 35-45$ seperate purchases... for each model. 

 

Now what i forgot to mention is,  why is it not snobbery to release a kit to modellers, and then FORCE them to purchase kit upgrades to it, that can easily be INCLUDED in the kit and not foist that cost onto consumers?

 

in the OLD days of modelling, no one thought about a cockpit.. now its either feel shame for only using what the kit provided, or being regarded as an "adult" modeler because you double or quadruple the cost of the kit by buying all the upgrades for it..  

 

 

I think that the answer to that is, choice, and how badly you want that particular kit. If I see a kit which is as you've described, I'll weigh up my options, decide on how much I'll have to spend, and if I still like the look of it, then I'll buy it. If I don't, then I'll walk away. My choice. I can't speak much about aircraft, as I haven't built one for about 25 years, but when I did, most kits gave you a basic cockpit, which for a lot of people and children, is sufficient. If I wanted it to be more detailed, then I would either scratch build what was required, or buy some AM item for it. For me that's what this hobby is all about. That's why the IPMS Nationals competition has classes for OOTB, detailed and converted. It's up to the individual how far he/she wants to go with the model.

Personally, I think that kit manufacturers are correct when they give you a model which isn't all singing and all dancing. The child (or for that matter, the adult) who is building his first model isn't going to want it to be too fiddly. It's getting them interested. If it's too difficult, we could be loosing a potential modeller.

I hasten to add that these are just my opinions. Feel free to disagree.

 

John.

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27 minutes ago, Bullbasket said:

A lot of people are spending much more than that on one model, but they don't realise it, because they're doing it on a weekly basis. I'm talking of course about "part works".

 

For a moment I thought you were talking about the aftermarket accessories which add so much to the price of a model, but in small, easy payments.

 

I could never do a partwork model, I couldn't stand the waiting.

 

27 minutes ago, Bullbasket said:

My bother

 

I have a bother-in-law. Awful man. 😁

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15 hours ago, Bertie Psmith said:

 

For a moment I thought you were talking about the aftermarket accessories which add so much to the price of a model, but in small, easy payments.

 

I could never do a partwork model, I couldn't stand the waiting.

 

 

I have a bother-in-law. Awful man. 😁

 

model by sections, it seems a good idea but in reality it isnt..  some of the model ship ones only let you order a section after you complete the previously numered one. thus if you complete section 5, and 6/7/8 are on backorder for 8 months.... you twiddle your thumbs amongst other things.

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18 hours ago, Bullbasket said:

I think that the answer to that is, choice, and how badly you want that particular kit. If I see a kit which is as you've described, I'll weigh up my options, decide on how much I'll have to spend, and if I still like the look of it, then I'll buy it. If I don't, then I'll walk away. My choice. I can't speak much about aircraft, as I haven't built one for about 25 years, but when I did, most kits gave you a basic cockpit, which for a lot of people and children, is sufficient. If I wanted it to be more detailed, then I would either scratch build what was required, or buy some AM item for it. For me that's what this hobby is all about. That's why the IPMS Nationals competition has classes for OOTB, detailed and converted. It's up to the individual how far he/she wants to go with the model.

Personally, I think that kit manufacturers are correct when they give you a model which isn't all singing and all dancing. The child (or for that matter, the adult) who is building his first model isn't going to want it to be too fiddly. It's getting them interested. If it's too difficult, we could be loosing a potential modeller.

I hasten to add that these are just my opinions. Feel free to disagree.

 

John.

 

On another forum not wanting to "accurately model the interior" of say a felix stowe and then cover it up makes you a "bad person".  But spending a 100$ to detail the feed system for the internal guns, genuinely dimensioned fuel tanks with correct fuel caps, etc then you are upheld as a paragon of virtue.

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