CC-150 Polaris overall colour - which hobby paint grey?

[JackG]

Impossible to tell from photos because lighting conditions can really impact the shade of grey:

 

 

The IPMS Canada site has a listing of aircraft colours, but I don't think it is updated to current liveries, or at least not to 2018 when this overall grey was introduced.

https://www.ipmscanada.com/1989/01/01/ipms-canada-canadian-colours-guide-1989/#ee5d61450ec857833

 

I think this grey may have been part of the original two tone grey scheme.  It comprised the underside portion as well as the markings.  So according to the colour chart in the above link, this would be FS16175 - but hold on, this number shade does not exist on the  FS 595 color system.   So IPMS suggest  Testor’s Model Master “FS Dark Grey (F-15)”, which translates to FS36176.  

 

This seems to be sorted, but the Model Master range has been discontinued, so if a bottle of that can't be found, now what?  Will any brand of FS36176 do, or was it just that Testor's version matched best, which just happened to be labelled with that particular FS number?

 

edited to add that I may have found my answer, but in doing may mean disagreeing with IPMS chosen paint match.  So using their digital sample (which includes RGB values) and taking those numbers to Encycolopedia that matches to paints, the result is FS36173.   The difference is only 0,586, while 2 or less is considered a good match.

 

 

 

 

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

Edited June 29, 2022 by JackG

[e8n2]

15 hours ago, JackG said:

Impossible to tell from photos because lighting conditions can really impact the shade of grey:

 

 

The IPMS Canada site has a listing of aircraft colours, but I don't think it is updated to current liveries, or at least not to 2018 when this overall grey was introduced.

https://www.ipmscanada.com/1989/01/01/ipms-canada-canadian-colours-guide-1989/#ee5d61450ec857833

 

I think this grey may have been part of the original two tone grey scheme.  It comprised the underside portion as well as the markings.  So according to the colour chart in the above link, this would be FS16175 - but hold on, this number shade does not exist on the  FS 595 color system.   So IPMS suggest  Testor’s Model Master “FS Dark Grey (F-15)”, which translates to FS36176.  

 

This seems to be sorted, but the Model Master range has been discontinued, so if a bottle of that can't be found, now what?  Will any brand of FS36176 do, or was it just that Testor's version matched best, which just happened to be labelled with that particular FS number?

 

edited to add that I may have found my answer, but in doing may mean disagreeing with IPMS chosen paint match.  So using their digital sample (which includes RGB values) and taking those numbers to Encycolopedia that matches to paints, the result is FS36173.   The difference is only 0,586, while 2 or less is considered a good match.

 

 

 

 

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

If it is supposed to be AMC gray, then 36173 is the color to go with.  I don't know where 36176 being called Dark Gull Gray came from as DGG is 36231.  I have never heard of a 16175 and suspect it may be a typo.

Later,

Dave

[e8n2]

I don't have the pictures scanned, but when C-141B 65-0251 first got back from it's second trip to depot after Desert Shield/Storm (it was one of the Silver Bullets pulled out of depot for use in Desert Shield/Storm), it was repainted in the then new AMC gray color.  There was also a C-130 with it so we could see what they looked like in the new color scheme.  The  national insignias were low viz but in hi viz proportions.  Looked rather cartoonish.  They also had a sheen on them, nearly gloss like, but more like semi-gloss.  They may have tried something like 26173 at first but by now they all have a rather flat finish to them.

Later,

Dave

[JackG]

Slowly getting some feedback from a facebook group on Canadian Military Aircraft.  A member suggests  FS26375 with dark grey  FS26099 markings.  Also awaiting on IPMS Canada for their suggestion.

 

I had looked at Belcher Bits, but the  closest subject they have is the Hercules.  Depending on the version, there are two colour combinations (overall  and lettering).   So far it is looking like the top sample just reversed.

 

 

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

 

 

[Casey]

On 6/29/2022 at 7:04 AM, JackG said:

FS16175 - but hold on, this number shade does not exist on the  FS 595 color system

I have 16165 only

 

I think getting the information why the FS16175 even popped out in references may be very educational.

 

FS36176 I could probably calculate a mix for.

 

Here is the one based on original 1956 standard paint chip.

 

FS595 - 36176
    Suggested using total of 24 parts (DE00: 0.40)    Expected: #6B7883, Simulated: #6A7782
        Titanium White: 19
        Carbon Black: 3
        Primary Cyan: 2

 

 

Here is the theory. Let me make a sample in practice. I am using Golden Fluid Acrylics pigments to make paints at home.

 

Edited July 1, 2022 by Casey

[JackG]

16165 could pass as a shade from the olive drab family, so not quite what I am seeing.

 

The response from IPMS Canada has the identical choice for markings (FS26099), but for overall grey they are not sure between FS26375 or FS26173.   So will go with the former as it is slightly lighter.   Now which hobby acrylic paint brand(s) have the best matches, the second half of the battle begins ...

 

regards,

Jack

[Casey]

6 minutes ago, JackG said:

16165 could pass as a shade from the olive drab family, so not quite what I am seeing.

 

The response from IPMS Canada has the identical choice for markings (FS26099), but for overall grey they are not sure between FS26375 or FS26173.   So will go with the former as it is slightly lighter.   Now which hobby acrylic paint brand(s) have the best matches, the second half of the battle begins ...

 

regards,

Jack

 

If you have trouble finding them, and like acrylics - I can provide recipes for those colors to make from acrylic pure pigments you can get on local hobby shops in Canada.

[Casey]

While I was at it, I did FS36176 using natural pigments which ends up as a glossy sample.

 

Here is the result compared to an original FS36176

 

Next to a real life FS36176 sample:

 

Spectrophotometer readout:

 

I can work on the other colors if you can't find an alternative elsewhere.

[JackG]

I don't think I need a recipe for the dark grey FS26099 as this is just for the markings, and I don't plan to paint those.   At least I hope the decals are not pure black as I don't have the kit in my hands yet, but is on order.   Thanks much for providing the technical view posted above.

 

 

regards,

Jack

[Casey]

37 minutes ago, JackG said:

I don't think I need a recipe for the dark grey FS26099 as this is just for the markings, and I don't plan to paint those.   At least I hope the decals are not pure black as I don't have the kit in my hands yet, but is on order.   Thanks much for providing the technical view posted above.

 

 

regards,

Jack

I do have FS26173 from both 1956 and 2016. I do not have the original sample for FS26375

 

FS595 - 26173
    Suggested using total of 19 parts (DE00: 0.34)    Expected: #797F85, Simulated: #797F86
        Titanium White: 13
        Carbon Black: 2
        Titan Green Pale: 3
        Transparent Yellow Iron Oxide: 1

 

Update: Where does one find an FS26375 on a FS reference? I mean which year it was added? I have AMS 595A as newest and it has 26373 and 26380.

Edited July 1, 2022 by Casey

[JackG]

FS26375 tends to have some variation in it's name, but seems to have been added after the Vietnam war when light to medium greys for aircraft became popular with the US military?

http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index.php?/topic/310129-history-of-compass-ghost-grays/

 

regards,

Jack

 

[tmeyer]

I had a look around and found FS 36375 here: https://ams-std-595-color.com/.  I'm sorry, but I couldn't really find when 36375 came into effect.  However, it's Light Ghost Gray, which has been on F-14s, F-15s, F-16s, F-18s, and other aircraft.  So, it's been around since at least the mid-80s, I believe.

 

Sorry I couldn't help you more.

 

Tom

[Casey]

2 hours ago, tmeyer said:

I had a look around and found FS 36375 here: https://ams-std-595-color.com/.  I'm sorry, but I couldn't really find when 36375 came into effect.  However, it's Light Ghost Gray, which has been on F-14s, F-15s, F-16s, F-18s, and other aircraft.  So, it's been around since at least the mid-80s, I believe.

 

Sorry I couldn't help you more.

 

Tom

That's what I am curious of! I have 36375 but there is a mention of 26375, which should be the satin version of same color. I do not have 26375 on samples deck, just 36375.

Edited July 2, 2022 by Casey

[e8n2]

11 hours ago, JackG said:

16165 could pass as a shade from the olive drab family, so not quite what I am seeing.

 

The response from IPMS Canada has the identical choice for markings (FS26099), but for overall grey they are not sure between FS26375 or FS26173.   So will go with the former as it is slightly lighter.   Now which hobby acrylic paint brand(s) have the best matches, the second half of the battle begins ...

 

regards,

Jack

I remember seeing a Canadian aircraft like those in the pictures at top in at Travis for an airshow in the mid to late 90s (I retired in 98).  It definitely is NOT 26375.  The paint fades.  If you were to look at a C-5 now, especially compared to when they first got repainted, you could easily tell that they are a bit lighter now.  Lighting conditions can also affect the perceived shade.   FS26173 with maybe just a touch of white would be better. 

Later,

Dave

Edited July 2, 2022 by e8n2

[JackG]

The Airbus transport photos I had linked at the top were all taken this year, and were painted in that particular livery in 2018.  Prior to this the tones were reversed, but the undersides and engines were also the lighter grey, while the flag emblem on the tail was a toned down (no middle white section).   Example below:

 

 

Going further in reverse timeline, the very first (or original) scheme was again an overall grey with markings in red and full colour roundels:  All five entered service by August 1993.  Now the IPMS site does quote this initial scheme as FS26173.

 

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[e8n2]

It turns out that I do have a partial picture of 65-0251 right after it got back from depot with the new paint scheme.

 

Like I said, it looked rather cartoonish and didn't last too long.  Next I have two shots of 65-0246, also known as the motor home with a T-Tail:

 

 

 

It lost it's left wing in a fire (and a big goat rope involving people not following established procedures, especially during a bomb threat at the Pax Terminal).  The right wing was used to bring another aircraft back up to flight status.  Later it was used as a trainer for MedEvac missions and finally scrapped on location.  Notice how the gray in the tail section is much lighter than the gray in the front of the fuselage.  Most of the time the tail was exposed to the elements and faded.  IIRC the Polaris that was here for airshow the one time had all of the markings in gray.  I think I might have a picture of it somewhere.  I'll try to search it out later.  On the current scheme for the Polaris, it looks like maybe 26118 over 26173.  The lower color looks to dark to be 26375.

Later,

Dave

[JackG]

Those are interesting photos.  Noted about the grey fading, but so has the two greens towards the tail end.

 

Am not sure how these will help pin down the colour of the Polaris as it appears today.   As you stated, it was seen in the late 90's, at which time it was a completely different livery than what it currently is.  There is no lower colour, but is finished in one grey overall.

 

regards,

Jack

[JackG]

I have to agree that 26375 is a light grey, and is quoted to be on the lowers on the CF-188 Hornet.   Looking at a folder full of these fighters, the undersides do not match that of the Polaris overall colour.

 

So back to the drawing board.  So now have contacted the RCAF through facebook...

 

 

regards,

Jack

[e8n2]

10 hours ago, JackG said:

So now have contacted the RCAF through facebook...

regards,

Jack

The Air Force is back to being called the Royal Canadian Air Force again?  When did sanity prevail and that change come into effect?  Is the Navy back to being the Royal Canadian Navy as well?  Makes much more sense than doing thinks like the Chinese Communist Party and calling everything the People's Liberation Army Air Force for example.  I can remember our base in England getting beat up by some Canadian F-104s in the spring of `75 during an exercise.  Blew some people's minds as they thought we were really under attack!  I do believe by that time they were already having all the Canadian military services operating under the Canadian Armed Forces name (in both English and French).

Later,

Dave

[Britman]

One thing is for sure, the national markings are in keeping with the size of the aircraft. Reference the RAF!

 

Keith

[JackG]

The decision to return to original names for the air force and navy came about in August 2011.  It better reflects the heritage, and is in keeping with other Commonwealth nations that also use Royal.  Land Force Command was renamed the Canadian Army.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/peter-mackay-hails-royal-renaming-of-military-1.1059811

 

Not sure how quick the changes were applied to equipment, but referencing the Belcher Bits posted link above, the Hercules had RCAF-AR added only in 2016.

 

 

regards,

Jack

[busnproplinerfan]

I'm not sure on the grey, I just know that each CC-150 wears a different scheme currently.

[JackG]

That is interesting, the lone VIP cc-150 certainly stands out with the traditional RCAF colours, but I just assumed the two tankers and two standard transports were the same grey?  

[e8n2]

15 hours ago, JackG said:

The decision to return to original names for the air force and navy came about in August 2011.  It better reflects the heritage, and is in keeping with other Commonwealth nations that also use Royal.  Land Force Command was renamed the Canadian Army.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/peter-mackay-hails-royal-renaming-of-military-1.1059811

 

Not sure how quick the changes were applied to equipment, but referencing the Belcher Bits posted link above, the Hercules had RCAF-AR added only in 2016.

 

 

regards,

Jack

Glad to see that they did it.

Later,

Dave

[kpenney]

If you still need clarification on this I can check at work....I'm in the RCAF and with the guy who controls the paint we use on all aircraft.