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Fw190D-9 'red 18' - or is it blue...err....


Werdna
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Hi all

 

I'm looking at modelling Fw190D-9 'red 18+~' WNr 211115 - which seems to be fairly well documented in profile form.  I gather there are a number of original pics of the a/c in some of the Dora books, but I don't have access to those.

 

Mostly these profiles show a yellow fuselage band just to the rear of the balkenkreuz, but I have seen other profiles which seem to represent this a/c with a white band, some with black numbers - and just to confuse things further, IBG's recent 1/72 Dora release has the '18/~' markings in blue, not red.

 

I'm inclined toward red numbers and yellow band - but only because that is what there seems to be most of in terms of representation.  If anyone has any thoughts, or could confirm either way, I'd be happy to see any responses.

 

Thanks in advance :) 

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29 minutes ago, Werdna said:

I gather there are a number of original pics of the a/c in some of the Dora books, but I don't have access to those.

Ask @SafetyDad , as he does have the Dora books. 

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So do I 😉 

JaPo Dora C&M Vol. 1 covers -115 on pp. 140-144 has several photos and a profile. The authors' conclusion from photo analysis and colour pics of an S-8 from the same unit (I./EKG (J)) is that 18 and wavy line are red; the fuselage band on the S-8 is described as a washed-out pale yellow, much paler than 27. They conclude this also applyies re -115, which fits with the photos - though I'd have expected the depiction in the profile much less saturated than it is, as the band is really very pale in the pics.

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Adding to @tempestfan's information, here are some pictures

 

From Crandalls Fw 190D Vol 2

 

IMG_1480

 

IMG_1482

 

and from here

 

IMG_1486

 

another Fw 190 of I/EKG(J) showing similar markings

 

IMG_1483

 

(All pictures posted purely for the purposes of discussion/research and intentionally slightly distorted to discourage further replication).

 

Numbers and fuselage Gruppe marking are red, with a white outline. Airfoil No 2 by Steve Sheflin contains pictures and a profile of 'Red 31' from the same unit - two pictures are in colour, confirming the red used for numerals, but alas, the fuselage band is not visible in the pictures.  The fuselage band is a puzzle - Crandall includes a colour profile which renders the band as very light yellow (think vanilla ice cream). Personally (and it's just a personal view) I don't buy that - it's not a standard RLM colour and I believe that the band used by the unit was white. Other aircraft from this unit are known - 4, 17, 19, 22 and 41

 

HTH

 

SD

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Thanks @SafetyDad and @tempestfan - valuable and very welcome assistance.  Red - and white - it is then.  As for the fuselage band - I do have a Vallejo colour called 'aged white' - which is a kind of 'yellowed' white.  It's basically a bit less 'brilliant' than the regular white, if that makes sense.  Might be a good compromise..

 

Thanks again :) 

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The most recently published representation of this aircraft is in the 2021 JaPo book, Messerschmitt Bf 109s & Other Aircraft of I./EKG(J) - a unit based in the wartime Czech Protectorate, dedicated to re-training of bomber pilots to fly fighters. The book includes much new info from Czech sources, not available when Mr. Crandall's amazing landmark volumes were published 15 years ago.

 

W. Nr. 211115 is the only Dora known to have served with the unit, with the 4. Staffel at Pilsen (a.k.a. 20./EJG 2 after an 11th-hour re-organization). The tail band is definitely pale yellow, not any kind of off-white. This was used consistently throughout EKG(J).

 

The profile in this book shows the "18" and wavy band as blue, which is backed up by color photos of a couple of Fw 190A's from the unit. This superbly researched book was undoubtedly the reference for the decals in the new IBG 1/72 D-9 kit.

 

Blue would definitely be my choice (even though I have two aftermarket decal sheets with red 18's on 'em, dang it!).

 

0-DEA5-EDA-68-B4-46-A8-B833-F04617-DFA75

Edited by MDriskill
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2 hours ago, SafetyDad said:

Adding to @tempestfan's information, here are some pictures

 

From Crandalls Fw 190D Vol 2

 

Numbers and fuselage Gruppe marking are red, with a white outline. Airfoil No 2 by Steve Sheflin contains pictures and a profile of 'Red 31' from the same unit - two pictures are in colour, confirming the red used for numerals, but alas, the fuselage band is not visible in the pictures.  The fuselage band is a puzzle - Crandall includes a colour profile which renders the band as very light yellow (think vanilla ice cream). Personally (and it's just a personal view) I don't buy that - it's not a standard RLM colour and I believe that the band used by the unit was white. Other aircraft from this unit are known - 4, 17, 19, 22 and 41

 

HTH

 

SD

Sorry, I misquoted Deboeck/Larger/Poruba, in that the colour photo analysis was NOT of the S-8 but of Rote 31 (an A-6/8 hybrid, as they identify it). Their wording suggests that (a) colour photo(s) of "31" exist that confirm the pale yellow.

56 minutes ago, MDriskill said:

The most recently published representation of this aircraft is in the 2021 JaPo book, Messerschmitt Bf 109s & Other Aircraft of I./EKG(J). This unit was based in the wartime Czech Protectorate and dedicated to 11th-hour training of bomber pilots to fly fighters.

 

W. Nr.  211115 is the only Dora known to have served with this unit, with the 4. Staffel at Pilsen (later re-named 20./EJG 2). The tail band is definitely pale yellow, not any kind of off-white. This was used throughout this unit.

 

The profile in this book shows the "18" and wavy band as blue. This superbly researched book was undoubtedly the reference for the decals in the new IBG 1/72 D-9 kit, also showing blue. That would be my choice (even though I have two aftermarket decal sheets with red, dang it!).

 

As Poruba has co-authored both the Dora and EKG(J) books: Does he give any more background to his change in interpretation from red (which appears very logical) to blue, e.g. newly found documentation?

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1 hour ago, Werdna said:

Thanks @SafetyDad and @tempestfan - valuable and very welcome assistance.  Red - and white - it is then.  As for the fuselage band - I do have a Vallejo colour called 'aged white' - which is a kind of 'yellowed' white.  It's basically a bit less 'brilliant' than the regular white, if that makes sense.  Might be a good compromise..

 

Thanks again :) 

You are very welcome 🙂 There must be a reason why I spent 250 € for those books (well, there is another one, but don't hold your breath...).

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1 hour ago, MDriskill said:

The profile in this book shows the "18" and wavy band as blue, which is backed up by color photos of a couple of Fw 190A's from the unit. This superbly researched book was undoubtedly the reference for the decals in the new IBG 1/72 D-9 kit.

 

Many thanks, your edit was simultaneous with my post, and answers that question. BUT - if Rote 31 was from the same unit and wore red tactical markings at the same time - wouldn't that leave both options, possibly? One thing in favour of blue ***might*** be the top photo @SafetyDad posted - the stripes on the extending footstep which should be red (unless it's a Ford T) show a discernible difference in tone to the "18" to my (admittedly bad) eyesight; no expert in RLM red tones, and ignorant whether there were different shades for different purposes as in the case of 04 and 27, but may this have been a factor in the re-interpretation?

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I over-spoke a little. The one good photo is the famous film of "Blue 31," the odd hybrid Fw 190A that USAAF Lt. Bruce Carr claimed to have "stolen!" 

 

I was also incorrect in stating that the entire Gruppe used pale yellow tail bands. The book notes that off-white and dark blue were also used, but the pale yellow is definitely correct for the 190's.

 

As for the author's argument of blue vs. red for 4. Staffel, the new EKG(J) book says:

 

Colors of tactical markings (as well as Staffel symbols) were unified - white for 1. Staffel, black for 2. Staffel, yellow for 3. Staffel, and blue for 4. Staffel. There are still doubts regarding the color of 4. Staffel marking, some sources believe it was red. Unfortunately, relevant documents such as casualty reports or logbooks did not refer to the color. However, according to Luftwaffe usual practice, 4. Staffel was more likely to use blue color. 

 

Actually...a less rock-solid argument than I remembered! But I personally would still go with blue. The book consistently uses blue for 4. Staffel a/c, with beautiful color profiles for "Blue 31," Fw 190A-9 "Blue 19," Fw 190A-7 "Blue 17," Fw 190S-8 "Blue 41," and two Arado Ar 96B's, "Blue 49" and "Blue 56," in addition of course to Fw 190D-9 "Blue 18."

Edited by MDriskill
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4 hours ago, MDriskill said:

I over-spoke a little. The one good photo is the famous film of "Blue 31," the odd hybrid Fw 190A that USAAF Lt. Bruce Carr claimed to have "stolen!"

 

As for the author's argument of blue vs. red for 4. Staffel, the new EKG(J) book says:

 

Colors of tactical markings (as well as Staffel symbols) were unified - white for 1. Staffel, black for 2. Staffel, yellow for 3. Staffel, and blue for 4. Staffel. There are still doubts regarding the color of 4. Staffel marking, some sources believe it was red. Unfortunately, relevant documents such as casualty reports or logbooks did not refer to the color. However, according to Luftwaffe usual practice, 4. Staffel was more likely to use blue color. 

 

The book uses blue for 4. Staffel a/c consistently, with beautiful color profiles for "Blue 31," Fw 190A-9 "Blue 19," Fw 190A-7 "Blue 17," Fw 190S-8 "Blue 41," and two Arado Ar 96B's, "Blue 49" and "Blue 56," in addition of course to Fw 190D-9 "Blue 18."

 

Thanks for this - like you I have decal sheets with the markings as Red, but the arguments you have presented here are very persuasive.

 

Every day's a school day!

 

SD

 

The Airfoil I referred to in my prior post (Vol 2) gives a very revealing account of the Bruce Carr episode - both the claims and the verified facts behind it!

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2 hours ago, SafetyDad said:

Every day's a school day!

 

Agreed.  I have now stood down my bottle of RLM23 and put my bottle of RLM24 on high alert.. ;) 

 

Still not sure what to do about the fuselage band - I fear my bottle of 'aged white' is not going to be 'yellow' enough.  I may have to mix something...

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For me, that single book can give enough inspiration for unlimited amount of late ware Luftwaffe aircraft if one is interested in those.
I am in love with Japo publications - so I am a bit biased but this book is a must have (just like any of their books for that matter).
The only book I am missing from their Czech Luftwaffe series is "Messerschmitt Me 262s of KG & KG(J) units" by Brown, Janda, Poruba.& Vladar

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2 hours ago, Milos Gazdic said:

I am in love with Japo publications - so I am a bit biased but this book is a must have (just like any of their books for that matter).
The only book I am missing from their Czech Luftwaffe series is "Messerschmitt Me 262s of KG & KG(J) units" by Brown, Janda, Poruba.& Vladar

I can understand this - obviously they rate quality far more important than quantity; had there not been the rave reviews of the Dora books which I missed when originally released, I wouldn't have considered spending the amount on them I did.

The 262 book is still available from their website at EUR 33.00.

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