Macchi C.200 profile question

[quangster]

Hello modeller friends,

While researching for a new project, I stumbled on this profile of a Macchi C.200 Saetta with unusual black triangles bordering the cowling.

Picture for information only

 

This machine was allegedly from the 96a squadriglia (9 gruppo, 4 stormo C.T.) Gorizia-Merna march 1941.
As the wise man said: never trust a profile without a photo 😉 I tried to look for a photo of this same aircraft/unit but to no avail.

Can you help me with a reference to that particular machine?

Thank you for your input,

Cheers,

Quang

[warhawk]

Looking at the profile. the triangles are not black, rather left in original cammo.

[quangster]

24 minutes ago, warhawk said:

Looking at the profile. the triangles are not black, rather left in original cammo.

Indeed I see it now 😏

[GiampieroSilvestri]

The yellow cowling with the triangles at the rear was the squadron distinctive of 96a squadriglia from 9° gruppo 4° Stormo Caccia terrestre.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

[quangster]

Thank you @GiampieroSilvestri. What I mostly need is a photo of an aircraft from that unit. I search the internet and couldn’t find any.

Cheers,

Quang

[Zigomar]

Apart the internet there are good old books! Nino Malizia Aermacchi  Bagliori di guerra IBN Editore has a good amount of MC 200 pics and Wingd ofItaly has a color pic of your profile (p 65) which confirms what Giampiero wrote.

[quangster]

1 hour ago, Zigomar said:

. Apart the internet there are good old books! Nino Malizia Aermacchi  Bagliori di guerra IBN Editore has a good amount of MC 200 pics and Wingd ofItaly has a color pic of your profile (p 65) which confirms what Giampiero wrote.

Oh yeah books! Some years ago I decided to lighten my karma and get rid of some of my belongings. And that included my sadly-missed library.

Nowadays most of my documentation comes from the internet. Hopefully I’d find the photo you mentioned in your post.

Thank you for your input.

Cheers,

Quang

[MDriskill]

 

Thanks to Zigomar jogging my memory (!), here is the Wings of Italy shot. As noted above, no black - just yellow triangles on the dark-camouflaged cooling flaps. All photos in this book are original color - not colorized - originally done for a special wartime magazine issue.

 

Note also the color inside the cockpit side panel...gray, not green. There also appears to be a small re-finished area just behind the cockpit opening.

 

The very accurate profile in your first post was done by Angelo Brioschi for the superb "Ali d'Italia" series. Note that the color on the front of the propeller blades was a special pale blue called "Celeste," you can read all about that here:

 

 

 

Edited June 29, 2022 by MDriskill

[quangster]

This is exactly what I’m looking for 😀

Thank you @MDriskill for the photo and also the added details. I just read your post on the recce thread. That Wings of Italy book is certainly a must-have.

[Zigomar]

On 6/28/2022 at 11:14 AM, quangster said:

Hello modeller friends,

While researching for a new project, I stumbled on this profile of a Macchi C.200 Saetta with unusual black triangles bordering the cowling.

Picture for information only

 

This machine was allegedly from the 96a squadriglia (9 gruppo, 4 stormo C.T.) Gorizia-Merna march 1941.
As the wise man said: never trust a profile without a photo 😉 I tried to look for a photo of this same aircraft/unit but to no avail.

Can you help me with a reference to that particular machine?

Thank you for your input,

Cheers,

Quang

As you have received your model, you might find this link helpful for the Italeri kit. Best regards.

https://www.stormomagazine.com/ModelArticles/MC200/JeanBarby_372_2/MC200_JB_1a.html

[quangster]

Aah Jean, I studied your article (along with some others) during the week-end. Now I’m ready to put my hands in the pasta (as our southern neighbours say it😜)

Thank you @Zigomar for your tip

Cheers,

Quang

[Zigomar]

Well, then good luck as it is no picnic!

[quangster]

1 minute ago, Zigomar said:

Well, then good luck as it is no picnic!

Who’s talking about picnic? This is whistling 😗 in the dark 😎

[quangster]

On 6/29/2022 at 12:49 AM, MDriskill said:

Note that the color on the front of the propeller blades was a special pale blue called "Celeste," you can read all about that here:

I just found this addendum to your original post. Pale turquoise prop, how fascinating! Quite a conversation piece if I do it on my model 😀 .

On the other hand, do you confirm that this particular C.200 had the blue prop because I cannot find any mention of it in the text accompanying the illustration (Ali e Colori n°2).

Thank you for your input,

Cheers,

Quang

[GiampieroSilvestri]

Here is a picture of a Fiat Cr42 with the blue painted propeller.Please remember that the rear of the propeller blades was painted in black.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

 

 

 

Edited June 30, 2022 by GiampieroSilvestri

[quangster]

Thank you @GiampieroSilvestri. I’ve seen the photo on the link provided by MDriskill.
I’m a newcomer to the Regia Aeronautica subject. It’s the first time I heard of pale blue propellers. Fascinating!

Cheers,

Quang

[MDriskill]

The first good discussion of the Celeste color in English that I am aware of, is in the 2015 Valiant The Macchi MC.202 Folgore, A Technical Guide by Maurizio Di Terlizzi. Color profiles in many older publications (including the Ali d'Italia and Ali e Colori series of the early 2000's) will show the light-colored prop fronts in dull silver or the underside gray. But the blue can be seen in many older original color photos.

 

There is quite a bit of variation in Celeste. Reggiane used a medium-dark blue-gray, and FIAT a distinctive bright hue as seen above, but the Piaggio-made props on the Macchis are a more toned-down pale blue-gray; Di Terlizzi likens it to the German RLM 65.

 

 

 

Edited June 30, 2022 by MDriskill

[quangster]

52 minutes ago, MDriskill said:

the Piaggio-made props on the Macchis are a more toned-down pale blue-gray; Di Terlizzi likens it to the German RLM 65.

 

Actually it looks like the pale blue gray I used on the Italeri cockpit based on the museum shots published in AeroDetail #15.
I’ll try it tonight on the C.200 prop and let you know.

On another matter, the pilot’s harness on the Macchi was very different from what’s usually seen in the Allied forces. I may sound naive but where can I find some information about it? I scoured the internet but to no avail.

Thanks again everybody for your help. 

Cheers,

Quang

[GiampieroSilvestri]

The cockpit of the Macchi MC200 Saetta was painted in verde anticorrosione which is a very light green,not grigio azzurro chiaro which is a light blue grey.The Humbrol equivalent for the colour is Hu90.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

Edited June 30, 2022 by GiampieroSilvestri

[quangster]

37 minutes ago, GiampieroSilvestri said:

The cockpit of the Macchi MC200 Saetta was painted in verde anticorrosione which is a very light green,not grigio azzurro chiaro which is a light blue grey.

…therefore, the people at the Vigno di Vallo museum must have got it wrong because the cockpit of their Macchi MC200 MM7707 series VII is painted Light Blue-gray as shown in Aero Detail #15.

 

Cheers,

Quang

[MDriskill]

Either can be correct.
 

The officially specified cockpit finish was grigio azzuro chiaro, but it was not always used, so that the green anti-corrosion coating remained exposed. It apparently varied over time and between manufacturers. 

 

A more detailed discussion is here:

 

 

Edited June 30, 2022 by MDriskill

[quangster]

9 hours ago, MDriskill said:

Either can be correct.

The plot thickens!

Like most issues, this one comes naturally with conflicting views.
A good thing in fact because it gives the modeller a choice: do I trust my eyes and reproduce what I’m seeing on the photos or do I give priority from the things I learned but don’t have physical evidence of? 🤨
 

[Giorgio N]

Not really a matter of conflicting views but are the result of changes in the way aircraft colours were specified by the Regia Aeronautica in the early '40s

Before the introduction of the Tavola 10, no colour was specified for the cockpit and manufacturers were free to use whatever colour they felt appropriate, as long as the paint used was approved by the air force technical department.

As manufacturers had their favourite paint suppliers and this resulted in a variety of colours being used, althogh really these were mainly greys, greens and grey/greens.

The C.200 entered production a few years before  the introduction of the Tavola 10 therefore most of these machines did not have to follow its requirements. And more, the C.200 was manufactured by both Macchi and Breda and each company followed their own procedures. Both greys and grey/greens have been seen in pictures of C.200 cockpits, so either could be used on a model. Among the different procedures was the treatment of the canopy frames (on these C.200s of course the windscreen only...): Macchi painted these in black while Breda used the cockpit colour.

 

Not strictly related to the C.200, however it may be worth mentioning that even before the Tavola 10 was issued, grey was used as a cockpit colour very often, so much that it's likely that the aircraft with green cockpits were a minority

[quangster]

Thank you Giorgio for your input. I still have lots and LOTS to learn. 🙄

[GiampieroSilvestri]

According to the book Ali e Colori Volume 2 about the Macchi MC200 Saetta aircraft number 96-10 was built by Breda so like Giorgio wrote you have to find out what cockpit colour was used.Page 32 of Aviolibri special number 5 Macchi MC200 Saetta part 1 by Maurizio Di Terlizzi shows three pictures of the cockpit of a restored aircraft painted in verde anticorrosione.🙂

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

Edited July 1, 2022 by GiampieroSilvestri