Avro Lancaster Elevator covering change from fabric to metal.

[T-21]

Lancaster's were tending to lose elevator fabric in a dive  due to the fabric ballooning and tearing. Sometime in the autumn of 1944 Avro decided to replace all elevators's with metal skinning.

 

Hoping somebody on Britmodeller may have information when this modification took place  ?  were all fabric elevator  Lancaster's recovered in metal  as a result ?  TIA

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

A discussion at

 

"avro lancaster elevator fabric metal" as a search string brings up a few more.  No one seems to have exact details on the change over from fabric to metal elevators.

W4783 G-George preserved in the Australian War Memorial has fabric elevators, it left Britain in October and arrived in Australia in November 1944.

FM159 is another preserved Lancaster that also has fabric elevators, Canadian built it arrived in Britain in May 1945, returned, it served in the RCAF until October 1960.

 

 

[fishplanebeer]

I've perused all the books I have on the Lanc (quite a few) and there is no mention of any conversion to metal covered elevators during its service in WW2 so I can only presume it was a post WW2 improvement to extend its longevity. By this time I think other types had been similarly improved, most noticeably the Spitfire, so this would make sense but with the Spit it was far more pressing due to the high speed and 'g' performance requirements. Whereas with a Lanc which was generally not expected to perform high stressed manoeuvres it was less of an issue but perhaps did improve its safety?

 

Regards

Colin.

[T-21]

Thanks Colin, certainly  corkscrewing may have placed considerable strain on fin loads. Metal covered elevators could absorb  more flak and bullet damage  and less prone to catch fire than fabric. 

 

Going to trawl  through my Lancaster books looking for elevator pictures, I may be some time .

[stever219]

Lancaster at War 2 details the loss of PB579 (I think) on test when the fuel jettison hose doors detached during a planned high speed dive.  They struck the tailpanes and elevators, tearing the fabric of the latter.  The high speed airflow caused the fabric to unravel, fatally reducing the elevators' effectiveness and preventing recovery from the dive.  The crew of four did not manage to abandon the aeroplane and all died in the crash.  As an interim measure additional wooden ribs were added to the elevator structures to which the fabric skin was laced in order to limit the propogation of tears until the metal-skinned elevators could become available.. 

Edited July 28, 2023 by stever219

[fishplanebeer]

I know that the very early Lancs had an issue with the wing tips which were prone to coming off and a very hasty mod was then done to solve the problem but despite trawling all my Lanc books I can't find any reference to the elevators being changed from fabric to metal or find any pics which show them being in place.

 

In some respects fabric was preferable as it was easier to repair and most inflagrations in a Lanc were well away from the tail section so they didn't present a particular fire risk.

 

My best guess is that they were changed to metal at the very end of production, as in post war, and those continuing in use with the RAF or sold to other countries may have had this mod applied retrospectively to make them more maintenance free, but of course I could be wrong. It might be worth digging out the pics of the B.VII's  used in the Dambuster film to see if they had metal elevators as by then these would have had any such mod applied.

 

Regards

Colin.

[stever219]

KB889 and NX611 both have metal-skinned elevators; as the latter saw service post-war with L’Aeronavale she probably received them as part of the refurbishment programme.  Now looking for close ups of R5868 and PA474.

 

Edit: PA474 has metal-skinned elevators.

 

’nuvver edit: R5868 has fabric covered elevators but they have the additional ribs as referred to in my earlier post.

Edited June 28, 2022 by stever219

[fishplanebeer]

I've found  some pics of the B.VII's being used in the Dambuster movie and these appear to have metal elevators but as these had been in storage for a while  it is not entirely surprising that this was the case by 1954 when the filming took place. It would be nice to know if R5868 has metal or fabric, although 'G' George in Australia apparently has fabric and is more of an accurate time capsule given that it was sent to Australia during WW2 and would not have had the same level of restoration that R5868 has received perhaps?

 

Regards

Colin.

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

https://www.lancasterbombers.net/form-78-aircraft-movement-cards/

 

R5868, on RAF charge 20 June 1942, 83 squadron 29 June, 467 squadron 3 December 1944, 15 MU 22 August 1945, struck off as an exhibition aircraft 22 February 1956, Historical Aircraft Collection 16 March 1956.  (Loss of R5686 initially assumed to be R5868 and the card is marked accordingly)

KB889 on RAF charge 18 December 1944, was sent to Britain, 428 squadron 8 April 1945, To RCAF 6 July 1945 (RCAF says) 11 January 1946 (RAF says), struck off 21 May 1965.

 

NX611 on RAF charge 16 April 1945, no RAF squadron service, in storage, to Avro in May 1951 for conversion/modification, to France

 

PA474 on RAF charge 18 August 1945, identified for PR conversion, AWA for modification May 1947, 82 squadron September 1948, CS(A) (Controller of Supplies (Air)) 2 May? 1954.  Memorial Flight November 1973.

 

[stever219]

8 hours ago, fishplanebeer said:

I've found  some pics of the B.VII's being used in the Dambuster movie and these appear to have metal elevators but as these had been in storage for a while  it is not entirely surprising that this was the case by 1954 when the filming took place. It would be nice to know if R5868 has metal or fabric, although 'G' George in Australia apparently has fabric and is more of an accurate time capsule given that it was sent to Australia during WW2 and would not have had the same level of restoration that R5868 has received perhaps?

 

Regards

Colin.

I found a poor quality (it is on my damn' phone anyway) image of R5868 where the light catches the starboard elevator in such a way as to highlight the locations of the ribs near the leading edge and it very strongly suggests that she has the interim extra ribs as referred to in my earliest post in this thread.

[T-21]

EUREKA !!!     Yesterday I put an appeal for information on the East Kirkby Facebook forum. Bradley Winder has kindly found out from the Lancaster Modification list  that Mod 1101 dated 6th May 1946 saw the introduction of metal covered elevators  on the following Lancaster's. Marks affected B.1(FE),P.R.1, G.R.3, B.7(F.E)   In the Remarks column it say's for tropical aircraft.

Edited June 30, 2022 by T-21

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Good find.  According to the reports Lancaster production ceased in January 1946 except for 1 mark I from Armstrong Whitworth, in June 1946 so the switch to metal elevators can be said to be after production ended. It still covered a large number of aircraft.

 

On 25 April 1946 Bomber Command authorised strength was 42 mark I (FE) and 208 mark I and III, plus 14 mark I and III in a squadron converting to Lincolns.  A year later there were still 48 mark I (FE) authorised.  Also around in mid 1946 were 3 or 4 Lancaster III GR squadrons.

[T-21]

As an add on I was curious whether metal skinned elevator's were incorporated on the Avro York and Lancastrian.  On checking the York on display in Airspace at IWM Duxford I can confirm the elevator's are metal skinned. Just need confirmation on the Avro Lancastrian ?

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Key Date is 6 May 1946.  Both types were doing overseas/tropical service and until well after May 1946.  Yorks were in production from October 1943 to April 1948.  Lancastrians were in production from February 1945 to April 1947. You would expect later production to have metal elevators as built and many of the early ones to be retrofitted.

[T-21]

An easy way to tell if a Lancaster has fabric or metal skinned elevators. Both have the actuating rod under the elevator's. On the fabric covered version there is a mass balance horn protruding above the elevator's. Metal skinned elevators have internal mass balance's and are flush skinned.

Edited July 24, 2023 by T-21

[PatG]

Sadly I no longer have the pilot notes for the Lanc but they may shed more light on the flap settings for the aircraft as I'm not sure if they were able to be set at varying degrees depending upon flight requirements or if they were just 'up' and 'down'.

 

That said I think that the Lanc had variable flap settings so not just 'up' or 'down' but happy to be corrected as this is this based upon some basic research on 'tinternet'.

 

Pat.

Edited July 27, 2023 by PatG

[sloegin57]

11 hours ago, PatG said:

Sadly I no longer have the pilot notes for the Lanc but they may shed more light on the flap settings for the aircraft as I'm not sure if they were able to be set at varying degrees depending upon flight requirements or if they were just 'up' and 'down'.

 

That said I think that the Lanc had variable flap settings so not just 'up' or 'down' but happy to be corrected as this is this based upon some basic research on 'tinternet'.

 

Pat.

From Lancaster Instructional Course Handbook, 1654 CU RAF Wigsley, dated January 1945 :-

 

 

HTH

 

Dennis