Recce Macchis, C.200 and C.202

[GiampieroSilvestri]

Aviolibri no.1 about the Macchi MC205 Veltro from IBN Editore by Maurizio Di Terlizzi on page 8 says "3° stormo Macchi MC205 tirelessly took part in the defence of Lazio and Rome during summer of 1943,whereas the operative use of the photographic reconnaissance aircraft of the 310° stormo proved to be extremely innovative for the Regia aeronautica".The first normal Macchi MC205 serial aircraft left the factory in september of 1942.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

Edited June 18, 2022 by GiampieroSilvestri

[MDriskill]

An aside, but interesting. The aircraft is an early C.202; the engineer noted is mentioned in a couple of references as the gent who designed the planimetric camera installation for the C.202. This early-build machine is not a recce bird (note details of the first type radio antenna), but belonged to 4 Stormo at the time their first recce aircraft were converted. 

 

I thought the arrowed bit might be something interesting at first...but given the low angle of the sun, it may just be the shadow of an inner gear door!

 

 

Edited June 22, 2022 by MDriskill

[GiampieroSilvestri]

I am sorry but I forgot to write above that the first normal Macchi MC205 Veltro fighter left the factory in september of 1942,not a ricognitore.I have added it now.

 

Thank you very much

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

 

 

 

[Graham Boak]

"about 30cm in diameter" hints at a hole rather than doors.  it seems a while since I started this thread (expecting much shorter replies) but I recall one view showing what appears to be a gutter at the front, to divert oil/dirt from the lens.

[MDriskill]

In the C.205 Walk Around, these photos show the cockpit controls for the vertical camera. Note the reference to the sliding circular cover for the lens in the lower right image.

 

It appears the upper image is from a different aircraft than the two lower ones. Note the upper image is also used in the same author's earlier "Aviolibri" title on the C.202.

 

Edited June 20, 2022 by MDriskill

[MDriskill]

My apologies for further beating this dead horse, but the new Osprey Macchi C.202/C.205V Units In Combat book that Graham mentioned above, states that recon C.202's used the Italian-made "AGR 90 planimetric camera" in the rear fuselage, not the German-made Zeiss. By sheer dumb luck I stumbled upon this 1938-vintage illustrated survey of Italian recce cameras:

 

https://www.asprs.org/wp-content/uploads/pers/1938journal/sep/1938_sep_147-154.pdf

 

So the C.202 and C.205 recon birds may have less in common than I assumed (see: my tag line 🙄 ).

Edited June 20, 2022 by MDriskill

[MDriskill]

I'll shut up after this, I promise. "STORMO!" decal sheet no. 48-007 includes markings for recce C.202 serial MM.7712, "97-2." Note camera window in the lower-surface view. (Vince Tassone at STORMO! tells me this is speculative, however - he knows of no photo of this area.)

 

Link for a higher-resolution view of their entire range:

https://www.stormomagazine.com/Decals_Stormo.htm

 

 

 

 

Edited June 20, 2022 by MDriskill

[Mark Proulx]

43 minutes ago, MDriskill said:

My apologies for further beating this dead horse, but the new Osprey Macchi C.202/C.205V Units In Combat book that Graham mentions states that recon C.202's used the Italian-made AGR 90 planimetric camera in the rear fuselage, not the German-made Zeiss. By sheer dumb luck I stumbled upon this 1938-vintage illustrated survey of Italian recce cameras:

 

https://www.asprs.org/wp-content/uploads/pers/1938journal/sep/1938_sep_147-154.pdf

 

So the C.202 and C.205 recon birds may have less in common than I assumed (see: my tag line 🙄 ).

I wouldn't say you are beating a dead horse, but the discussion here seems to indicate that this is an area that needs some investigation. I know I am enjoying/learning and I am not really a "recce guy"!

 

Mark Proulx

[GiampieroSilvestri]

This is from the book "Italian aces of world war II" by Giovanni Massimello and Giorgio Apostolo,Osprey aircraft of the aces number 34 on page 82.

"Now flying Macchi MC200 from 76a squadriglia,7° gruppo 54° Stormo,Adriano Visconti had soon mastered the art of being a fighter pilot and he went on to perform numerous bomber escort

and aerial reconnaissance (in modified Macchi MC200 fitted with a photo planometric camera) sorties over Malta".Later it goes on."Early in 1942 a handful of

faster Macchi MC202 took over this mission from the Macchi MC200 and Adriano Visconti was assigned one of these rare aircraft".

I never heard of this before and as said there is not a single mention of these in any of the books about the Macchi MC200 Saetta and Macchi MC202 Folgore but in book about ace pilots?

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

[MarkoZG]

5 hours ago, MDriskill said:

I'll shut up after this, I promise. "STORMO!" decal sheet no. 48-007 includes markings for recce C.202 serial MM.7712, "97-2." Note camera window in the lower-surface view. (Vince Tassone at STORMO! tells me this is speculative, however - he knows of no photo of this area.)

 

Link for a higher-resolution view of their entire range:

https://www.stormomagazine.com/Decals_Stormo.htm

 

 

 

 

This particular machine MM.7712, "97-2." is quite elusive as I never found a photo of it no matter how much I tried.

There are some alleged photos but none of them with readable Matricola Militare. 

I also never found a photo of C.202 from the boxart of Supermodel kit.

Machines from Cavallino Rampante unit have almost non-discernable numbers on the fuselage and MM is hard to read.

If anyone could help with a credible photo of 97-2 or 97-4, I would be very grateful.

[GiampieroSilvestri]

I am occupying myself with Regia aeronautica aircraft for more than fifty years now and I have never read anything or seen a picture of Macchi MC200 Saetta or MC202 Folgore with planimetric cameras installed.I just found pictures of reconnaissance Macchi MC200 from a dimensione cielo book from the seventies and they all are of aircraft with the ROBOT camera in the leading edge of the wing.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

 

 

 

Edited June 21, 2022 by GiampieroSilvestri

[MDriskill]

Thank you Giampiero for those excellent observations, and interesting photos.

 

For further info re: recce cameras on the C.200, take a look at the older Aviolibri Part 1 on the Saetta. This note is on page 17: "...personal inventiveness at the units, backed and brought to fruition by Ing. Vittorio Lana led to the creation of about ten C.200's equipped for taking photographs. They had an Avia RB/20/75/30 camera placed behind the back of the pilot and worked by means of an opening in the lower left side of the fuselage."

 

If nothing else, our lengthy abuse of Graham's simple original question has taught us that recce versions of the C.200, 202, and 205 were nothing if not rare, and poorly documented! 😄

 

Edited June 22, 2022 by MDriskill

[Graham Boak]

Given the reported lack of converted fighters and the low survivability of individual bombers in the role, just how did the RA carry out strategic reconnaissance before the MC.205?  Clearly the forward facing cine cameras were totally unsuitable for this, and because of the low quality of the resulting film is not terribly convincing even for the low-level tactical role.   Given Italy's justified reputation for engineering ingenuity, this is baffling, although equally there is no sign of the use of sideways looking cameras either.

 

Is there the slightest evidence of Italy receiving any Bf.109G-8?  (Not that I've seen.)  Or did they simply rely upon passed-on German information?

[MDriskill]

13 hours ago, MarkoZG said:

This particular machine MM.7712, "97-2." is quite elusive as I never found a photo of it no matter how much I tried.

There are some alleged photos but none of them with readable Matricola Militare. 

 

If anyone could help with a credible photo of 97-2 or 97-4, I would be very grateful.

Vince Tassone at the STORMO! site (and designer of the decal sheet shown above) very kindly responded to my inquiry about this. This photo of MM 7712 published in the Ali d'Italia series was the reference for the decal sheet.

 

Edited June 21, 2022 by MDriskill

[MDriskill]

On 6/21/2022 at 7:17 AM, Graham Boak said:

Given the reported lack of converted fighters and the low survivability of individual bombers in the role, just how did the RA carry out strategic reconnaissance before the MC.205? 

In spite of inconsistent verbiage and the frustrating lack of photos, references do agree there were C.200's and C.202's with vertical planimetric cameras, separate from those with wing-mounted cine cameras. The 1938 article linked above notes that Italian cameras were typically as small and light as possible, enabling their fitting into smaller/faster aircraft and obviating the need for dedicated recce types. But it does all seem ad hoc compared to how other contemporary air forces approached aerial reconnaissance.

 

Re: your earlier question about how the camera (or the radio and fuel tank on standard fighters) was installed and serviced, the C.202 and 205 did have an access panel on top of the fuselage. It's rather small, and is well aft of the presumed camera location; but either that, or working through the cockpit, are the only apparent possibilities. There was no corresponding panel on the C.200.

 

 

Edited December 14, 2023 by MDriskill

[Mark Proulx]

From:

 

Macchi C.202 Folgore: Italys Best Fighter of the Second World War written by David F. Jabes, Alessandro Romanello and Niccolo Tognarini

 

Quoting from Page 142, 143

 

"as confirmed by the fact that only two Macchis were sent that had been modified with a fairing on each wing's attack edge to accomodate two AVIA film cameras, with the purpose of filming combat scenes for newsreel"

 

This is discussed pertaining to operations in Russia. The author claiming these cameras were for propaganda purposes.

 

HTH

 

Mark Proulx

[Graham Boak]

That access panel does appear too small and too far aft.  There must have been some way to reach the camera on a daily basis, for the changing of films, and also the need for access to service the camera in the event of minor faults, or indeed any need to change the camera.  Perhaps the comment about doors in the belly should not have referred to taking photographs but was access from beneath for the camera itself?   The only other way would seem to be from the cockpit, requiring the removal of the seat, back armour and any other structure?  Not very likely, certainly not an a day-to-day basis for changing the film.  I can understand why drawings made for the fighter would not necessarily show such things - most drawings of the Spitfire do not show camera positions or access.

 

The statement about the cameras in the leading edge for propaganda purposes is made for all three types.

 

The suggestion that MM7712 was originally used for PR purposes (as opposed to having been modified later) does strongly imply that any such small batch of these aircraft would have been produced very early in production, and other examples will be found with adjacent or close production numbers. 

 

One point about the MC.205 conversions is that they were fitted with additional fuel tanks, providing them with a more effective radius of action.  This would have opened up possibilities for the RA that they did not have before, possibly justifying (if only qualifying) the comment that the MC205 was the first in this role.

[MarkoZG]

7 hours ago, MDriskill said:

Vince Tassone at the STORMO! site (and designer of the decal sheet shown above) very kindly responded to my inquiry about this. This photo of MM 7712 published in the Ali d'Italia series was the reference for the decal sheet.

 

This is exactly what I wrote. I know about this photo and it doesn't show this machine with 97-2 markings and again MM is not readable. 

Also, the photo doesn't have the yellow nose like in decal sheet.

 

Edited June 21, 2022 by MarkoZG

[GiampieroSilvestri]

And the aircraft on the picture is also missing the cavallino rampante badge on the fuselage and the gamba di ferro marking on the fin remembering colonello Ernesto Botto who lost a leg in the spanish civil war an continued to fly with a wooden leg.Furthermore it is without a white stripe or unpainted area in the middle of the radiator below the cockpit and the matricola militare was white so it should be visible.Could it be an aircraft found abandoned by allied troops that had all the national insignia cancelled?

 

Thank you very much

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

Edited June 21, 2022 by GiampieroSilvestri

[Graham Boak]

I don't know what you are referring to, about an unpainted area on the radiator.  This does not seem to be present on many Folgores.  It would very odd to have a captured aircraft with individual markings painted out but repainting of the radiator, would it not?  Also, the aircraft is not said to be with the 97th at this time but the 377th, so would not have retained the older markings.  In the Osprey volume (by Marco Mattioli) this aircraft is shown in a profile with 377-1 on the white band (hidden by the wing in this photo) and neither unit markings nor yellow nose - again features of its time with the 97th?  Which could be pure invention or the possibility of another photo - as you say the MM is not visible yet it is quoted.  Or at least another source of information: perhaps it has been captured and this evidence appears in an RAF technical report?.

 

The photograph does not appear in my copy of Ala d'Italia No.2 dedicated to the Folgore.

[MDriskill]

MarkoZG and Giampiero: Please don't shoot the messenger! 🙄  I am merely passing along info provided by others. The caption makes clear that the photo depicts MM 7712 a year and a half after its recon days, in service with another squadron. A "Serie I" aircraft would have definitely had the yellow nose originally, and it is reasonable to think the other markings you note have been superseded.

 

I suspect many published camo schemes probably have at least this degree of "artistic license." I admit to a high tolerance level for this, and would happily finish a model it as depicted on the decal sheet - probably add the tailwheel fairings back too!  😄

 

Graham: These two excerpts from Chris Dunning's Courage Alone: the Italian Air Force 1941-1943 appear to agree with your conclusions, and with the info in the new Osprey book. (The first one is referring to 4 Stormo, in the fall of 1941.)

 

 

 

 

Edited June 22, 2022 by MDriskill

[Graham Boak]

Except that the aircraft is linked to 97th not the 73rd at this time.  This is at least an independent comment.

[MDriskill]

True, but the main point is that this reference hints C.202 recce conversions were limited to a small batch of early-build aircraft, as you surmised earlier.

 

Pure speculation on my part, but since the 4 Stormo's three Squadriglia (73, 96, 97) were apparently based together in their early days with the C.202, there might be several scenarios where aircraft moved between them.

 

Edited June 22, 2022 by MDriskill

[Graham Boak]

Other than introducing the 73rd as a possible new source of photographs, this information unfortunately doesn't say how many were issued to 4 Stormo, how they were initially allocated, nor whether the 73rd was completely equipped with the photo version.  It's possible that this aircraft spent its time with the 97th, then the 73rd, then other unit(s), and then the 377th.  In how many of these this was still equipped with the camera is another matter, but there would seem to be more reason to use it interchangeably than actually remove the equipment.  After all, there must have been a diminishing stock of these modified airframes and until the arrival of the equivalent MC.205 they would still have been a useful asset.

 

Sadly we still lack information: not only the known unknowns but the unknown unknowns.

[Giorgio N]

Folks, sorry for not having followed this thread properly...

In the meantime I've browsed through the manuals and the parts catalogues and I could not find anything related to any photographic equipment with the exception of the gun camera. Not that I'm surprised, had there been any material in those sources it would have been mentioned in the various books.

I've still got some digging to do, let's see if there's anything else.